Holster Retention Test

[Dead Buff]

Did the search and didn't get what I was looking for.

The holster retention test seems to be removed from the IPSC rules. I always thought this was a reletivly good thing - kept everybody safe from those flying guns.....

Just wanted your opinion on why this "rule" was dropped. Is such a test a good idea or not?

[Vince Pinto]

Hi DB,

Rather than an opinion, I'll give you The Facts.

The former Holster Test was officially abandoned, and the reason was quite simple - when competitors came to that particular stage, they adjusted their holster beforehand to ensure they'd pass, so this defeated the purpose of having the test in the first place. In any case, the penalty for holding your gun (or preventing it hitting the dirt if it "popped out") of 1 Procedural Penalty was hardly a deterrent.

Of course the fact that 60% (??) of our competitors couldn't do a forward roll if their life depended on it, even if the end of that journey involved falling off a bed into the waiting arms of Pamela Anderson (Brad Pitt for the ladies), was another issue.

Now, every stage which begins with a holstered gun is a defacto holster test and, if you drop your gun during a COF, you're toast. The former test was valid in the "old good days" when people used real (i.e. non-Star Trek) holsters, but there's not much point today because things have changed so much.

Hope this helps.

[Dead Buff]

Have you tried the PA/BP option? Might be a good way to realy test holsters...no one will remeber to adjust them....

Thanx for the info. Still feel that a holster should at least conform to the jump over 0.5m while turning left/right......IMHO

[Jim Norman]

Interestingly enough, I did a forward roll a year back with my Para in a C-R Speed, the roll was good and I landed on my feet, Unintentional, but good. The gun stayed put! (Admittedly, the little lock bar was in the walk-around position)

Jim Norman

[Dead Buff]

During a shoot??????

[Jim Norman]

Actually I had just finished shooting and reholstered. It was colder than a ... being the middle of winter. We were doing mostly stand and shoots since the ground was snow and ice covered. We couldn't drive the stakes all the way into the ground to hold the boxes in place and when I went to go forward to see my shots, I tripped on one and I "really" went forward. I think I almost did a full flip because I know I landed on my feet and kept right on walking toward the targets. Not something I'd try to repeat!

[Dead Buff]

Hope you held your pose and told the others that it was on purpose

This is one of the reasons why I like retaining holsters....makes life less complicated in the safety department....

[Vince Pinto]

Still feel that a holster should at least conform to the jump over 0.5m while turning left/right......IMHO

The last time I was required to do that was in 1998 at the European Championships in Greece. Apparently my adding a pike and half-twist to the jump even impressed the East German judge, who gave me an 8.5

[pwalker]

One option would be to add a holster test to the chrono:

1. Test power factor

2. Check magazines

3. Check trigger weight (production)

4. Check holster retention

Number 4 could simply be done by the chrono man tugging on the gun while it is holstered. If it appears to be unsafe, he could then call over an RO or RM to do a more valid test.

At least we are then sending the signal to all competitors that a safe holster is important.

Regards

Peter

[Vince Pinto]

Dear Peter,

Go away!

All he has to do is lock it when he holsters it, and the test is null and void. Ditto when it was part of a stage. It's easy to check the position of equipment on a competitor's belt, but impossible to check the tension of screw down tensioners, unless we start using the machine that goes "PING"

Holster tests are dead, cremated and the ashes have been strewn over the Pacific Ocean ..............

[Dead Buff]

Thanx for the info...

We had a guy use a piece of a 2 litre plastic milk bottle as a holster since he forgot the real thing at home. As belt he used some electric wire. Now I can be nasty to him.....and his draws were faster than before....

[ipsc1]

heres a question. As a RO you have a competitor come to the line. The start position is leaning over a bench and the holster is a minimalist design with locking abilities. The shooter assumes the position and unlocks the holster and attempts to adjust their position so the gun doesn't fall out. At some point they are satisfied and gives you the nod. They then make some movement that destabilizes the gun. As the RO you are 90% sure that the gun is going to fall. Do you proceed with "Are you ready?" or do you advise the shooter that they are in danger of DQ'ing. and what about the next poor schmuck that you don't percieve the potential and you end up DQ'ing.

Part of me says a falling gun is unsafe and I should prevent it. The other part says if you play that game you take your chances and preventing the DQ becomes assistance.

ipsc1

[Julien Boit]

I'd say : You wanna play Ok, you know the rules, you know what could happen, so let's go.

I'm not ROing, only practice sessions, but I truly discourage that kind of behaviour.

That won't give you a big advantage over the others.

In France, I believe I made three or four retention tests since I'm shooting IPSC (6th year now). Three were during a stage, and the fourth was an equipement check before the match.

We had magazine size measured, pistols fitted into the box, holsters and mag pouches position checked, as it should be done (in my opinion).

[wide45]

Dude, If you can prevent an unsafe action, you do it.

Safety before competition, everytime.

[Julien Boit]

I don't see it as a safety issue.

That kind of starts normally requires an unloaded gun .

If the start would have been with a loaded gun, I would have tell the shooterand didn't let him go until the problem was fixed.

But as I told before, I'm not an RO.

I'm ok with the safety argument, but this is the shooter who deliberately tried to play with it, he lost, that's the game.

That's only my opinion

[davidwiz]

What if the loaded gun fell out of the holster and when its hit the ground it AD'ed? What if it was pointing back uprange when this happened? First rule of an RO (I know, you're not an RO, but this seems to me to be common sense) is, as Wide45 pointed out is, safety first.

[Julien Boit]

You're right David, but as a stage conceptor, I would try to avoid that kind of things whenever possible.

In that kind of situation, as a shooter, I always start with a locked holster, no matter if the gun is loaded or not.

Now, If that kind on thing happens, there is more than a simple problem with a holster locked or not and competitor's pistol should be considered as unsafe until the opposite is proven (safeties unoperative etc... ).

That's why I truly believe that an equipment check before the match is important.

But again, RO's are here to save all of our asses and prevent this.

I said I'm not an RO not because I don't like ROs, but because I don't feel I could handle all what those guys and girls do for the sport.

Most of the time, the put their own shooting aside for us, and I love too much that sport for doing so, some kind of egoism maybe

[Vince Pinto]

As the RO you are 90% sure that the gun is going to fall. Do you proceed with "Are you ready?" or do you advise the shooter that they are in danger of DQ'ing.  and what about the next poor schmuck that you don't percieve the potential and you end up DQ'ing.

If the gun has a chambered round, you'd be acting in the best interests of everyone to order him to secure his gun, because if it falls to the ground, there could be a discharge.

This is quite different to, say, a competitor failing to properly seat a magazine or failing to chamber a round when permitted. His error in those cases only affects the competitor. However if you see a definite safety risk, you must prevent it.

[Flexmoney]

btt

I bumped this old thread up for a little history.

[Spray_N_Prey]

hehe nice one flex, I was reading through about half of this and then saw the 2004 date tags.

[Shootingirons45]

In the early 80's we had retention tests and even back then there were quite a few "larger" individuals that gave us more than a few laughs while attempting a forward roll. Now that I'm 52 I find that while I could still do a forward roll..it hurts and I'd look silly doing it. I for one, am glad the whole issue went away. It is kinda fun to look and see the differences between now and then.

[VegasOPM]

Good thing that requirement is gone. No forward roll for me, unless the CRO was willing to pay for the medical bills if I landed on my bad shoulder wrong.