Finger slip on trigger

[para45]

While shooting the other night trying to get more accurate at longer distances I found that my finger was slipping down to the first joint after a couple shoots due to the recoil (SW 625). Is there a triger I can install with chekering or something that may help me keep my pad on the trigger or is this somthing I am going to have to work on making sure my position on the trigger is always right??? Needs to be USPSA legal !!

Thanks, John

[Bill Sahlberg]

John,

You are not suppose to have just the end of your finger on the trigger like an auto. The first joint on a smooth surfaced trigger is best with the "fat pad" of the end of your finger feeling the frame of the gun. For accuracy you squeeze or pinch this "fat pad" and it feels like single action. Practice feeling the two "clicks" and holding on the second click while dry firing. When you can master this every shot is like single action but your accuracy will improve considerably. Old PPC Model 14 shooter, Steel Challenge/Icore 627, and IPSC 625 shooter

[JohnRodriguez]

what ever way you learn to shoot, either with your finger tip or with the pad of your first joint, don't change your finger position for a longer shoot, all you'll do is push or pull the shoot's depending how you change your finger position,

what I've done is take a piece of chammy (what you use to dry your cars off with) and glued it with some 3M fast tack spray. you can use skateboard tape, but it will probably eat your finger up from the recoil

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

To answer your question, yes there is a grooved trigger. I change all of mine to .500 wide grooved and like it. There is also a narrower grooved trigger which is what I believe Mr. Michulek uses. He also advocates finger tip placement on the trigger for faster pull.

I don't get faster pulls, I just get a better feel.

Regards,

[Rufus The Bum]

From Brownells catalog:

Part Number: 940-000-028

Trigger Assembly, Serrated, .400", Floating Hand, SS

Fits $41.00

Fits: 625

I installed this trigger assy in my 625 and it works great.

[Carmoney]

15-20 years ago Jerry was the ONLY guy shooting serrated triggers with his finger tip. Now everybody who's watched his DVD is trying to imitate him.

This technique may have merit for the pure McGivern-style speedshooting stunts, where the only goal is to empty the gun in half a second, but I really don't think it's practical for much else.

Jerry should keep shooting serrated triggers with the pad of his index finger--he can do it. The other 99.999% of us should be using smooth narrow triggers, and be pulling them with the first joint.

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

[Patrick Sweeney]

Good point, Mike. In the last (half? third?) of his duels, Myamoto Musashi used sticks, and even a whittled-down oar against his opponents. He not only won, but was never cut. Did that mean a wooden stick was superior to a live katana? (Rhetorical question, no need to answer.)

You must be very careful when analyzing anything from a sample of one.

The important questions are Why does Jerry do it that way, what advantage does it confer, and what are the costs?

[slughammer]

I wonder if the finger slipping is more a function of what grips you are using.

I'll just guess that you are using the Miculek grips?

I recently tried a pair and for me they don't work. Doing a bill drill and the gun would torque till I was at the joint by the 3rd shot.

I use the just to the left of the middle of the first pad, don't know how anyone could shoot using the joint.

Edited to add that Ed McGivern is probably the reason I'm here today. I'm a huge fan of Ed.

[Carmoney]

Wanna know one reason Jerry can do what does with his finger pad?

Watch the DVD and take a look at the musculature in his forearms.

(Now watch yourself in the mirror while you dry-fire......)

[para45]

Thanks guys I had a talk with the 625 last night and she said if I promise to give it a bunch more finger massages on its trigger she would punch holes in even the far away targets. Thanks again, John DVC

[RPM8shot]

para45,

You have some intersting and worth while suggestions here. Obviously, having a gun similar to Jerry M will not make you Jerry M. I am kind of agreeing with Pat S in a roundabout way.

Yes, there is a serrated trigger available for your 625. You could also test if a "grippier" trigger is for you by using John R's suggestion. I also agree with his trigger position assesment.

Personally, I use 320/400grit wey/dry paper with 3M windshield cement on a smooth trigger. 3M Windshield cement sticks better to bare metal than just self adhesive grip tape. I have since switched to a .400 serrated trigger.

I think shooting all comes down to time spent on the range not practicing bad habits. Trigger control is the key no matter the poistion of your finger. It may be equipment ie serrated trigger, grip tape... or technique: grip exercises, finger tip placement... Maybe you need a combination.

Look at Rudy W, Vic P, Tetsu M, Jason P different equipment but each man a top shooter in his own right.

There are no hard and fast rules on how to hold and shoot a revolver. Tailor your style and equipment to what works for you. Good Luck.

Carmoney,

No doubt Jerry is in a class all his own but I disagree about Jerry being speed only. This year at the IRC he scored a 7 on Far and Near Standards. Jerry knows something about 50yd shooting also.

Ed McG also had to be accurate to place five shots on a spot less than the size of a quarter.

NOTE: If I have taken your comments out of context I appologize. No flame intentded. I am only referring to what I have witnessed personally as far as Jerry's shooting ability.

Humbly,

RPM8shot

[Vic]

Im not a "fingertip pad" shooter either; even in my formative years shooting IPSC with a pistol, I held to the first joint. I neither accept, or reject the premise it is "the" way to position your trigger jerker. Whatever finger location a shooter is comfortable with, and can still exercise proper management of the trigger, have at it.

Im certainly not in the rarified air of Jerry M or Vic P, but Ive played with them at IRC a couple of times, and placed in the top ten, so I have a basic understanding of how to shoot a revolver:) I can promise you though; the reason I never edged them over, could have been one of a myriad of technical malfunctions....but it wasn't because of where I had my finger:)

[Carmoney]

RPM: Oh, by no means did I mean to imply that Jerry M. does speed stunts only. In terms of shooting a revolver, he's absolutely the best there ever was. He's also a wizard with dang near every other type of firearm you can put in his hands, typically winning the majority of side events at the various matches he shoots. He's also a good guy on a personal level.

I shot against Jerry at Second Chance for a number of years, in the main event and the shootoffs. Sometimes I beat him, but most of the time, he beat me. Knowing I could never compete with him at his own game (the incredibly fast stuff, that is), I would go for consistent 5-shot runs at a pace of 4 seconds or a little less. Jerry would never slow down, no matter what. Running at the raw edge of control, occasionally he'd make enough of a mess of his tables that my plan would work. (In 1993, I finished second overall, Jerry finished third--Tapp beat us both.)

Jerry is definitely not about speed only. I was just trying to make the point that I think his technique (with the fingerpad and serrated trigger)--derived from Ed McGivern--is a highly-specialized method which can enhance pure balls-out speed, but will create a counterbalancing loss of control for most of us non-wizard shooters.

Mike

[hopalong]

As an Automatic shooter converted to the "real"gun I originaly learned to shoot with the pad of the finger. But while learning to manipulate the longer trigger stroke and watching the sights while dry firing the least amount of movement occured while shooting almost at the first joint of the finger for me.

I have Jerry M. s video and noticed where he puts it( his finger ) and tried it, as with everything new it felt weird, and the sights made a very small but noticable circle around what I was aiming at. I don't know about ya'll but when I dry fire I pick our very small spots to aim at and watch the sights constantly.

If a person is having the problem of finger slip and preferrs the end of pad style a serrated trigger will not hurt a bit as also with the first joint style for the milled lines on the trigger will help keep the finger from rolling in and out of the trigger guard.

I think what we have to do is teach our finger to squeeze straight back on the trigger either way we try, once we do that then we can worry about the small stuff.

Good luck and keep the faith.

Sam Keen/hopalong

[hopalong]

As an Automatic shooter converted to the "real"gun I originaly learned to shoot with the pad of the finger. But while learning to manipulate the longer trigger stroke and watching the sights while dry firing the least amount of movement occured while shooting almost at the first joint of the finger for me.

I have Jerry M. s video and noticed where he puts it( his finger ) and tried it, as with everything new it felt weird, and the sights made a very small but noticable circle around what I was aiming at. I don't know about ya'll but when I dry fire I pick our very small spots to aim at and watch the sights constantly.

If a person is having the problem of finger slip and preferrs the end of pad style a serrated trigger will not hurt a bit as also with the first joint style for the milled lines on the trigger will help keep the finger from rolling in and out of the trigger guard.

I think what we have to do is teach our finger to squeeze straight back on the trigger either way we try, once we do that then we can worry about the small stuff.

Good luck and keep the faith.

Sam Keen/hopalong

[RPM8shot]

Carmoney,

Wow, finishing 2nd to Jerry. My hat off to you.

My best at the IRC was 14th overall with Jerry a good 60 points ahead of me.

"Jerry is definitely not about speed only. I was just trying to make the point that I think his technique (with the fingerpad and serrated trigger)--derived from Ed McGivern--is a highly-specialized method which can enhance pure balls-out speed, but will create a counterbalancing loss of control for most of us non-wizard shooters."

I understand your point. Well said.

I also stand with the non-wizard shooters.

RPM8shot

[Carmoney]

RPM--

Actually, at Second Chance '93 I was second to Ken Tapp. Jerry finished third, after I managed to beat him on the tie-breaking "throwaway" table. (He used his fingertip and his serrated trigger and emptied both his main gun and his backup gun faster than it took me to fire five times--unfortunately for Jerry, he rolled one into the corner of the tiered table and couldn't dig it out even with all that lead flying downrange...I went slow and hit five for five.)

Unfortunately, the great game of bowling pin shooting seems to be nearly extinct these days...

I've never shot the IRC (or any other ICORE format matches), but would love to try it someday. This year I'm going to give Steel Challenge a whirl, for the first time. I'm hoping I can be "mildly competitive" in the Iron Sight Revolver division. My 11-year-old son will also be competing out there with an iron-sighted S&W wheelgun (686+ 7-shot). Figured I might as well start him off right!

[h4444]

Mike,,,,

"Mildly Competitive",,,,,,you're beating just about all of us with a wheelgun.

Glad to see you out. At the July Factory gun match, if we run two guns, I'm shooting revolver for the first time ever. I had hoped too last match, but Rick didn't have the new 625 quite ready.

All I've ever shot is autos. You could count the number of rounds I've put through a revolver on both my hands.

The way you handle a revolver,,,,,I'm sure I'll learn lots.....

H4444

[RPM8shot]

Carmoney,

I have shot the Steel Challenge in 2002 with a slide gun. I have never shot a slide gun competitively so that was a learning experience (My fouth time ever using one) I did get to train for a month with the top shooters (Todd Jarret, Matt Burkett, Bud Bond, Jojo Vidanes, KC Eusebio, Angus Hobdell, Roy Haryanto...) I learned alot from all of these guys in the month I trained with them.

I will look for you at the Steel Challenge. My wife and I will be spectating this year.

As for the iron sighted revolver division, Jason Pettit and John Bagakis will be some stiff competition.

Good Luck to you and your son,

RPM8shot

Renny Pizarro

ICORE# CA8490

USPSA TY29785

[Carmoney]

H4444: OK, you might be flattering me a little here, but I appreciate it nonetheless. You mentioned last time I saw you that Rick hadn't finished up your wheelgun yet--hope you find it as fun to shoot as I have my own various wheelguns. We are fortunate to have some very fine revolver shooters in our midst here in Iowa: Dwight, Dr. Jay, Doug Carden, Kenny Frost, and Barney Niner are a few that come to mind. Not sure whether I'll be at the OOPS match on the 25th or at the Lowell gun club where they're supposed to be shooting an unofficial ICORE match that day.

RPM: We will definitely be looking for you at the Steel Challenge! I'll be the one with the 627 in an old brown Safariland 002 and a dazed expression on my face. I can't believe I actually signed up for that match considering that I've only shot the format twice. Man, it sure is fun stuff, though! Anyway, I'm comfortable with the fact that this will be my "learning" year, and I'm sure looking forward to seeing Jason P. and the other tough iron-sight wheelgunners do their thing.

In both situations, win or lose, I will be shooting with the first joint of my trigger finger, on a slick and slippery trigger. (See how I neatly tied all of this discussion back into the original topic?)

[h4444]

The 625 is ready,,,I've got all my gear except for the holster. I ordered a CR Speed that is still pending on shootersconnection.com. Methinks, Chuck might not have that one in stock. Would be one of the very few times that has happend,,,,dude has everything and is just super to work with.

I'm looking forward to shooting the 625,,,I've been dry firing a lot with a CED 8000 timer (it can pickup the hammer strikes),,,,so it has given me a chance to practice reloads and see what is going to work for me.

I'm stoked to try the 6 gun. With all the guys we've got shooting them at the club,,,,it is a great opportunity for us new revolver shooters to learn......

H4444

[Carmoney]

h4444: Funny--with all the competitive shooting equipment I've owned over the years, I've never owned a shot timer. I better break down and make the investment one of these days.... When you start cranking on that DA trigger, you'll want to make sure to really keep your focus on that front sight, until you're used to it. (Hell, even after you're used to it, actually!!)

Before stepping to the line up at Second Chance, my revolver buddies and I used to remind ourselves (and each other) of our little mantra: "Front sight, roll.....front sight, roll....." Really, that's about all there is to it!

How did the action turn out on that 625?

[h4444]

Yeah, I feel like a fish out of water....but I'm getting there.

I had heard the CED 8000 could pickup dry fire so I figured I so rarely make it to the range, the only way I was going to get any trigger time on the revolver before my first match was going to be dry fire. I wanted to be sure I was familiar with the pistol before my first revolver match,,,,,but another concern I spotted quicly was the trigger and not pulling the muzzle in every direction.

In fact before the trigger job,,,,it was really hard to keep the front sight stillabout halfway through the pull the amount of pressure required shot up dramatically,,,,,now it is a lot smoother.

The action turned out pretty good,,,,based on what I asked for. I didn't want him to go "ultra light", I wanted the gun to go BANG absolutely everytime.

H4444

[reneet]

In case you might be interested in hearing from the top revolver guy... Jerry Miculek just passed through so I asked him what he does. He uses the skinny serrated trigger with the pad of his finger.

[shooterdoc]

Byron,

I shoot revos with the first pad of my finger on the trigger. I also shoot a lot of single action semiauto (often both guns at the same match). I find it easier to use the same finger position for both types of guns. I wonder of Kenny, Barney and Dwight do the same (they all shoot semiauto and revo). I will ask next time I see them.

Eight or nine years ago (you were still in diapers) I went down to Jerry’s place and shot with him for a couple of days. We talked some about sight picture. I and I think he (at least at that time) see circular/semicircular movement of the front sight during the trigger pull if we hold the gun on one target. Since that is what he saw I just accepted it as “the” way to shoot revolvers. This may be an issue in bullseye shooting but during most IPSC courses of fire and shooting steel I don’t see this movement. It is “lost” during the trigger prep of the draw and preparation of the trigger during transition from target to target. Mike’s way probably is better (he has shot way more revo than I) but the first pad on the trigger works o.k. for me.

Come shoot steel Sunday. Great way to practice revo shooting.

Mike,

You should add Skip Ahern to your list.

Is this revo heaven? No, Iowa.