Nimitz Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 So I'm fairly new to competitive shooting and have shot a total of 4 matches since Jan. I've taken Mike Seeklander's competitive handgun training class & am 3/4 of the way through phase I of his 3 phase 18 week training program. I'm very happy with my progress of learning & being able to execute in a match all the skills I've been learning with one glaring exception which I'm failing completely at. That is, the ability to call my shots & take immediate back-up shots when necessary. Worse, I'm catching myself taking backup shots from time to time because I'm visually scoring the targets during the stage. So my question is simple ... what kinds of drills can I do to learn how to call my shots? The only drill I'm aware of is something I saw on a Youtube video from someone on the Army shooting team. His drill was to set up a paper target next to you & then proceed to draw & fire 2 shots downrange to a target. Then without looking downrange put a paster on the traget next to you where you think each shot went based on what your sights told you & then compare that to your actual hits ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyV Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 I don't know the best way to learn this but for me using a ruger mark 2 22lr pistol and really concentrating on exactly where the sights are when it goes off Helped a lot! The good thing about the Ruger mark 2 is that the front sight is on the barrel so its a lot easier to watch and see exactly when it starts to move up rather then on a gun with the sights on the slide. To start off with I did not aim at anything I just pointed it down range and watched the front sight and pulled the trigger really slow and smooth watching for exactly when it started to move. after I felt like I could tell exactly when it started to move then I started aiming at targets and still was focusing on seeing when the sight moved and then just remember where it was when it started to move. I also notices that it was really hard to call shots till I got my index down good enough so that the relationship between my eye and front and back sights were not moving much. I am sure there is a better way and I am no expert so you might want to wait for some other people to comment. Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Shoot from a bag/rest, but not with your typical intention of shooting the tightest group possible. That's to say that after you get a clear focus on the front sight, don't turn your attention to a perfect trigger press, but instead keep all of your attention on the front sight. Heck, even intentionally break a bad shot or two and see if you can pick up the movement of the front post in time to call the shot. First and foremost though, you have to be certain you're not blinking when the shot goes off. Video or a pal will be necessary. Jeremy's suggestion of just shooting into the backstop or berm is a good one as well. Just stand there and shoot at nothing in particular, paying attention to the movement of the sights. I think a lot of folks get a little confused by the "watching the sights lift" suggestion. For most people, they're able to tell that the post lifted *from a different position* than where it was supposed to lift-- indicating that the shot was errant. For me, "watching the sight lift" put some mental block into play; within a couple of days of convincing myself that what I needed to see was right BEFORE the sight lifted, I started calling my shots with almost 100% consistency. It was like someone threw a light switch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyV Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Sin-ster, I know exactly what you mean. It reminds me of a helmet camera I have that records everything then when something interesting happens you hit the record button and only the last 10 secounds are recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Price Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Nimitz Jeremy and Sin-ster said exactly what i was going to do. I am pretty good a calling my shots. As you progress more you will first start notice misses then the better you get you will be able to call a/c shots. I can almost call my shots with in 4 inches of impact now. and its a skill you pick up with transitions. Try this drill. Get 5 8 inch paper plates. Line the up like a plate rack and go to town. This is how I really started getting good at calling shots and btw running plates racks pretty quick. Watch some of my videos where i shoot a texas start. You will see how fast I can call and make up a shot. Its one of the few things i do well at this game lol! I sure miss the friday night plate matches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted April 1, 2012 Author Share Posted April 1, 2012 thx all for the suggestions. I'll give thema try. I actually just recently picked up a .22 conversion for my Glock at Seeklander's suggestion. he said i should be able to notice a lot of things that are normally masked by recoil and using you're all's suggestions this should be one of them. BTW, how far do you put those 8" paper plates downrange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Price Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 10 yards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 When you shoot into the berm you should have a razor focus on the front sight. In addition you should be paying attention to your facial muscles, particularly around your eyes. It has been suggested that 6 rounds as quick as you can pull the trigger works good for this. This is very effective for learning to control a blink. Most people will naturally blink when an explosion happens 3 feet in front of their face. It's no big deal. This is just an effective fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 great, I'm heading to the range after work today so I'll let you know whow it works out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Worse, I'm catching myself taking backup shots from time to time because I'm visually scoring the targets during the stage. You mean...you are looking at holes in the targets, right? If so, there are worse sins out there...but that is among them. So my question is simple ... what kinds of drills can I do to learn how to call my shots? Well, you need to do a search here and rad up on shot calling. You will have to DECIDE to read your sights, and to TRUST that read...in calling your shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanjacket Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 I feel that it's knowledge that you simply garner over time as you continue to shoot more. As a 6 month newbie, I've been told by countless, more experienced shooters not to visually inspect targets, which because of my eyesight, I can't do anyway so that kind of works out lol. In any case, as an experienced shooter (not competition, but just general shooting), I know when I miss a shot because of how it feels/looks when I pull the trigger. I have a general knowledge of when I jerked the gun downward on a shot, or saw that my sight picture wasn't perfectly lined up.. maybe I only used the top sight on that shot. That's when I take a make-up -- all by feeling that you will gain over time as you shoot more and compile what the feeling of a "normal" shot is. Any time you fire a shot that "felt" or "looked" abnormal to the baseline you're used to feeling/seeing, you fire another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted April 2, 2012 Author Share Posted April 2, 2012 now I'm curious to know what other sins you would consider "the worse ones out there" besides sweeping the RO with your gun ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Not shooting Open is a terrible sin........... Just kidding!! How'd the berm shooting go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 it was fairly easy to focus on just the front sight while pointing at the berm. I was able to see the serrations on the front sight clearly & watch the sights move as the shot broke. I need to do that with 9mm next & see if I can still see the front sight as clearly when I'm just pointing the gun at the berm. So here's something else I've noticed now that I've shot 500-600 rds of 22 over the last several training sessions ... with the 22 I don't seem to have the issue of shots goingh center left anymore, everything (~95%) is in the A zone. But when I switch back to 9mm at the end of the session I seem to still have the issue of shots going center left (C zone) as well as As. After an hr of practice there won't be a single round right of the center. everything is A and left center C ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hebner Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I feel that it's knowledge that you simply garner over time as you continue to shoot more. As a 6 month newbie, I've been told by countless, more experienced shooters not to visually inspect targets, which because of my eyesight, I can't do anyway so that kind of works out lol. In any case, as an experienced shooter (not competition, but just general shooting), I know when I miss a shot because of how it feels/looks when I pull the trigger. I have a general knowledge of when I jerked the gun downward on a shot, or saw that my sight picture wasn't perfectly lined up.. maybe I only used the top sight on that shot. That's when I take a make-up -- all by feeling that you will gain over time as you shoot more and compile what the feeling of a "normal" shot is. Any time you fire a shot that "felt" or "looked" abnormal to the baseline you're used to feeling/seeing, you fire another. I agree 100 percent its all about the feel and tranfering the "bad feel"to where it went on the target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyV Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Nimitz, So like I said before shooting the 22 made it easy for me to call my shots.. Well now after being back on the 9mm for a while I am getting shots that just jump out from the group without me seeing them at all. I have been reading Brians book (totally awesome) and he talks about blinking and losing the sights while your eye is closed. Well to tell you the truth every once in a while I am still blinking with the 9mm. I never blink with the 22. The only way I know for sure that I am blinking is because I cant see the muzzle flash or the smoke from the shot. with my 22 I see it every time. you can also videotape yourself or have a friend watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tambarika Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 it was fairly easy to focus on just the front sight while pointing at the berm. I was able to see the serrations on the front sight clearly & watch the sights move as the shot broke. I need to do that with 9mm next & see if I can still see the front sight as clearly when I'm just pointing the gun at the berm. So here's something else I've noticed now that I've shot 500-600 rds of 22 over the last several training sessions ... with the 22 I don't seem to have the issue of shots goingh center left anymore, everything (~95%) is in the A zone. But when I switch back to 9mm at the end of the session I seem to still have the issue of shots going center left (C zone) as well as As. After an hr of practice there won't be a single round right of the center. everything is A and left center C ... if you are right handed and your shots are at 9 o'clock, it is possible you are 'fingering' the trigger -- pushing it to the right instead of *pressing* it straight back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeanjacket Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 (edited) it was fairly easy to focus on just the front sight while pointing at the berm. I was able to see the serrations on the front sight clearly & watch the sights move as the shot broke. I need to do that with 9mm next & see if I can still see the front sight as clearly when I'm just pointing the gun at the berm. So here's something else I've noticed now that I've shot 500-600 rds of 22 over the last several training sessions ... with the 22 I don't seem to have the issue of shots goingh center left anymore, everything (~95%) is in the A zone. But when I switch back to 9mm at the end of the session I seem to still have the issue of shots going center left (C zone) as well as As. After an hr of practice there won't be a single round right of the center. everything is A and left center C ... if you are right handed and your shots are at 9 o'clock, it is possible you are 'fingering' the trigger -- pushing it to the right instead of *pressing* it straight back. Generally, if you're "pulling" the trigger to the right, (as a right hander would), it generally means you have too much finger on the trigger and the shots would go right, not left. Shots going left can sometimes mean too little trigger finger (resulting in a "pushing" motion on the trigger towards the left when firing) or perhaps poor trigger follow-through. Also make sure that your right hand is very relaxed, just strong enough to support the gun one-handed, but do not squeeze while you're just gripping it or during the shot. Any additional pressure you wish to exert to control the firearm should come from your support (left) hand. Gripping too tightly with your right, particularly when pulling the trigger, can also cause shots to go left. Edited April 4, 2012 by Jeanjacket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tambarika Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 it was fairly easy to focus on just the front sight while pointing at the berm. I was able to see the serrations on the front sight clearly & watch the sights move as the shot broke. I need to do that with 9mm next & see if I can still see the front sight as clearly when I'm just pointing the gun at the berm. So here's something else I've noticed now that I've shot 500-600 rds of 22 over the last several training sessions ... with the 22 I don't seem to have the issue of shots goingh center left anymore, everything (~95%) is in the A zone. But when I switch back to 9mm at the end of the session I seem to still have the issue of shots going center left (C zone) as well as As. After an hr of practice there won't be a single round right of the center. everything is A and left center C ... if you are right handed and your shots are at 9 o'clock, it is possible you are 'fingering' the trigger -- pushing it to the right instead of *pressing* it straight back. Generally, if you're "pulling" the trigger to the right, (as a right hander would), it generally means you have too much finger on the trigger and the shots would go right, not left. Shots going left can sometimes mean too little trigger finger (resulting in a "pushing" motion on the trigger towards the left when firing) or perhaps poor trigger follow-through. Also make sure that your right hand is very relaxed, just strong enough to support the gun one-handed, but do not squeeze while you're just gripping it or during the shot. Any additional pressure you wish to exert to control the firearm should come from your support (left) hand. Gripping too tightly with your right, particularly when pulling the trigger, can also cause shots to go left. i meant left, not right, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 it was fairly easy to focus on just the front sight while pointing at the berm. I was able to see the serrations on the front sight clearly & watch the sights move as the shot broke. I need to do that with 9mm next & see if I can still see the front sight as clearly when I'm just pointing the gun at the berm. So here's something else I've noticed now that I've shot 500-600 rds of 22 over the last several training sessions ... with the 22 I don't seem to have the issue of shots goingh center left anymore, everything (~95%) is in the A zone. But when I switch back to 9mm at the end of the session I seem to still have the issue of shots going center left (C zone) as well as As. After an hr of practice there won't be a single round right of the center. everything is A and left center C ... Are you squeezing the trigger strait back? Trigger right in the middle of your finger pad? Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire..... Jerry Miculek told me once, "If you look for holes, someone has already beat you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted April 5, 2012 Author Share Posted April 5, 2012 yes, it was pointed out to me that I did not have enough trigger finger & that is why my shots were left center. I was just wondering if there was some reason that I've seemed to have corrected this when I shoot 22 but when I switch back to 9mm I seem to revert back to too little trigger finger ...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 yes, it was pointed out to me that I did not have enough trigger finger & that is why my shots were left center. I was just wondering if there was some reason that I've seemed to have corrected this when I shoot 22 but when I switch back to 9mm I seem to revert back to too little trigger finger ...? The higher recoil of the 9mm is most likely resulting in a different, tenser, grip which could result in the push. mda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted April 7, 2012 Share Posted April 7, 2012 You mean...you are looking at holes in the targets, right? This actually reminds me of a story... Shooting a little local accuracy match, I chucked a shot way into the 8 ring @ 25 yards and dropped my obligatory "GRAH!" with severa rounds left in the string. As 4 shooters are on the line at the time, one of my closest competitors (and older gentlemen who is a heck of a shot) finished his string and leaned around to see what I was griping about as we were pulling the targets in. I told him that I pitched one into the 8 ring, at best, due right of the bull. Once the target was down, he seemed amazed that there was a hole there, as he knew my target was "clean" prior to the final string. "Yeah, I called the stupid thing-- but there's no make ups here." He paused for a second and nodded, then asked: "You can see that far?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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