Schutzenmeister Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Possible thread hijack or misdirection here, but why is it that you do not have to respond in the affirmative to the question ,"are you ready." When I bring new shooters, I always tell them that no response is necessary, but a simple head nod is the courteous thing to do. There are those shooters who like to do all kinds of crazy things in their make ready routine and I have been told more then once that they are not ready, once they have assumed the starting position. It just seems like you aren't asking too much for a simple head nod. Read 8.3.2 and then tell us if you still have a question ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sin-ster Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Part of my routine typically *is* a head nod in response to the "Are You Ready?" command. Especially for those ROs with a pronounced pause between that and "Standby". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxriver6 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 In many of the Alabama Sectional videos, I noticed several ROs often said "shooter ready...stand by." My understanding of the rule is the usage of "are you ready...stand by." Are there exceptions? No there are not... but many of the ROs that worked that match may or may not have been USPSA certified - old school, or IDPA certified. Some were newer and just not used to doing it the "right way". On one of my stages, I waited till our squad was finished and pulled the RO off to the side to tell him nicely, that he was using the wrong commands. I called it "constructive criticism" just to make him feel better. He thanked me for helping remind him of the correct range commands, and even admitted he felt like a idiot when he looked down at the timer, still in his hand, and read the little white sticker on the side of it that had all the correct range commands, including ..... "Are You Ready?" LOL I also saw an instance of a shooter who thought he heard the RO say "Make Ready" so he took his gun out of the holster ...... when in fact the RO had, at that point, only said "Range Is Going Hot". The initial reaction was to DQ the shooter, but after some mild protest, he was reinstated because "Range Going Hot" is NOT A VALID RANGE COMMAND. This is another example why it's important to stick to the OFFICIAL Range Commands, and NOTHING BUT. No questions about "Do you understand the COF," or Taking an Unloaded Sight Picture, etc. should EVER BE USED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I understand 8.3.2. I understand that it is suggested. My question is why would it not be mandatory to respond in the affirmative? Think about if you were in a hospital bed in a coma and the Dr. said, "I am going to take you off of life support, ok? Don't worry, no response is the same as a response in the affirmative.". I realize that it isn't the same thing, but due to the rather serious and dangerous nature of our sport, I wouldn't think it would be out of the question to require a response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxriver6 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Chris, I was the RO you approached and I did appreciate the "constructive criticism" and the way you did it, it was thoughtful and well intentioned. The one question I have is, I know "Range is going Hot" is not a valid range command, however safety is a priority so how do you prepare the other squad members, spectators, etc. for the beginning of a COF without some sort of announcment. I for one, sometimes tip my ear protection up when taping and or scoring and you sometimes forget and get disracted, so hearing "Range going Hot" reminds you to put your ears on. looking to learn, that was my first major match, and had a great time shooting and RO'ing! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I understand 8.3.2. I understand that it is suggested. My question is why would it not be mandatory to respond in the affirmative? Think about if you were in a hospital bed in a coma and the Dr. said, "I am going to take you off of life support, ok? Don't worry, no response is the same as a response in the affirmative.". I realize that it isn't the same thing, but due to the rather serious and dangerous nature of our sport, I wouldn't think it would be out of the question to require a response. First - "No response" is defined by the rule that the shooter understands and is ready to proceed. It is incumbent upon the shooter to respond in the negative if that is not the case. Second - Although I sometimes wonder when watching some people shoot, we really don't have any comatose shooters on the line. In more direct answer to your question, I know MANY shooters, including a number of the "professional" shooters, who prefer to focus like a laser on waiting for the buzzer, getting that first shot off sometime yesterday, and keeping their gameplan in their head ... Requiring an affirmative response is an unnecessary distraction. The current system works. Many of the better shooters will keep their hand on the gun until they are ready. At that point, they drop their hand to a "ready" position. I've always considered that a relatively good "affirmative" signal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 I know the post about more criticism than thanks wasn't directed at me but I can assure you that is not the case. I did lots of thanking and very little criticizing. The waiting for a nod thing annoyed me since I so there for a second or two waiting for "standby" and realized it wasn't coming so I nodded. The issue, in my option, is that these RO's won't learn unless the issues are corrected. How can they learn the right way if they don't know they are doing anything wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Again, my question is not how the rule is written or the definition of "ready". What about the guys that take their hand off the gun, assume the position, then proceed to practice grabbing the gun two or three times? It can get annoying if you are asking each time if they are ready. I am going to continue giving a simple head nod when the question is asked. Guess what? I plan that head nod into my routine and it doesn't screw me up in the least to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterj Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 In many of the Alabama Sectional videos, I noticed several ROs often said "shooter ready...stand by." My understanding of the rule is the usage of "are you ready...stand by." Are there exceptions? No there are not... but many of the ROs that worked that match may or may not have been USPSA certified - old school, or IDPA certified. Some were newer and just not used to doing it the "right way". On one of my stages, I waited till our squad was finished and pulled the RO off to the side to tell him nicely, that he was using the wrong commands. I called it "constructive criticism" just to make him feel better. He thanked me for helping remind him of the correct range commands, and even admitted he felt like a idiot when he looked down at the timer, still in his hand, and read the little white sticker on the side of it that had all the correct range commands, including ..... "Are You Ready?" LOL I also saw an instance of a shooter who thought he heard the RO say "Make Ready" so he took his gun out of the holster ...... when in fact the RO had, at that point, only said "Range Is Going Hot". The initial reaction was to DQ the shooter, but after some mild protest, he was reinstated because "Range Going Hot" is NOT A VALID RANGE COMMAND. This is another example why it's important to stick to the OFFICIAL Range Commands, and NOTHING BUT. No questions about "Do you understand the COF," or Taking an Unloaded Sight Picture, etc. should EVER BE USED. Shooter should not have been reinstated. If the gun cleared leather without the "make ready" command,.....sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latech15 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Just so everyone is clear.....I haven't, don't, and won't wait on a shooter to give any kind of signal. I operate within the rules passed down from the mother ship. I just don't necessarily agree with not requiring a response. Name one other instance where "no response is the same as a response in the affirmative." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Name one other instance where "no response is the same as a response in the affirmative." not touching that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Again, my question is not how the rule is written or the definition of "ready". What about the guys that take their hand off the gun, assume the position, then proceed to practice grabbing the gun two or three times? It can get annoying if you are asking each time if they are ready. I am going to continue giving a simple head nod when the question is asked. Guess what? I plan that head nod into my routine and it doesn't screw me up in the least to do so. As a RO you can get a feel for the shooter. Don't be in a rush to get them through the stage, just get them through the stage. I'm one of those that will take a sight picture, load up, put gun in holster with hand still on gun while running through the stage in my head, the drop my hand and lets rock. If I wanted to bring my hand back to my gun when the RO asked if I was ready I would just shake my head no, its pretty simple. At the same time give a brief pause before repeating are you ready and typically you'll get a nod or static and lets roll on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Right on, Corey. I've given "are you ready" early before. Never been a big deal, just give them a few more seconds and you'll be able to tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Again, something needs to be clear here....... The RO can say "Range is going hot," "Do you understand the course of fire," and/or "Did you have coffee this morning?" The RO can say anything he wants PRIOR TO and AFTER the official range commands have been given. So anything before "Make Read" and after "Range is Clear," is not a part of the range commands and thus isn't something to be confused as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Again, something needs to be clear here....... The RO can say "Range is going hot," "Do you understand the course of fire," and/or "Did you have coffee this morning?" The RO can say anything he wants PRIOR TO and AFTER the official range commands have been given. So anything before "Make Read" and after "Range is Clear," is not a part of the range commands and thus isn't something to be confused as such. True ... But in so doing it HAS happened that the shooter misunderstood what the RO said and THOUGHT he was told to Make Ready. This is especially problematic on noisy ranges and/or with shooters whose first language is not English. (BTW - That's NOT a crime!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddox Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Some people just sit there when you say "are you ready?". Without a response I generally have a longer pause before "Standby". I could be wrong in my actions but I am waiting on some sort of acknowledgment that you heard me. If you don't respond in a few seconds I am moving on without you. If I distracted anyone during the match I apologize. Edited March 23, 2012 by maddox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Some people just sit there when you say "are you ready?". Without a response I generally have a longer pause before "Standby". I could be wrong in my actions but I am waiting on some sort of acknowledgment that you heard me. If you don't respond in a few seconds I am moving on without you. If I distracted anyone during the match I apologize. IMO a few seconds is too long. I'm not waiting more than a half second or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiw275 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 In many of the Alabama Sectional videos, I noticed several ROs often said "shooter ready...stand by." My understanding of the rule is the usage of "are you ready...stand by." Are there exceptions? No there are not... but many of the ROs that worked that match may or may not have been USPSA certified - old school, or IDPA certified. Some were newer and just not used to doing it the "right way". On one of my stages, I waited till our squad was finished and pulled the RO off to the side to tell him nicely, that he was using the wrong commands. I called it "constructive criticism" just to make him feel better. He thanked me for helping remind him of the correct range commands, and even admitted he felt like a idiot when he looked down at the timer, still in his hand, and read the little white sticker on the side of it that had all the correct range commands, including ..... "Are You Ready?" LOL I also saw an instance of a shooter who thought he heard the RO say "Make Ready" so he took his gun out of the holster ...... when in fact the RO had, at that point, only said "Range Is Going Hot". The initial reaction was to DQ the shooter, but after some mild protest, he was reinstated because "Range Going Hot" is NOT A VALID RANGE COMMAND. This is another example why it's important to stick to the OFFICIAL Range Commands, and NOTHING BUT. No questions about "Do you understand the COF," or Taking an Unloaded Sight Picture, etc. should EVER BE USED. Shooter should not have been reinstated. If the gun cleared leather without the "make ready" command,.....sorry. The shooter should have been reinstated due to the following: 12.2 Language States the official language for USPSA is english. 8.3 Range Communication Lists the approved range commands and ther order of the commands. Non english speaking competitors expect the specific order of range commands and we are obligated to issue the commands as set forth in the rules. This is the reasoning explained at an RO class given by Gary Stevens. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Out of respect to the hard working ROs in Alabama, I wonder if we could change the title of this thread to "RO commands" or something more general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Again, something needs to be clear here....... The RO can say "Range is going hot," "Do you understand the course of fire," and/or "Did you have coffee this morning?" The RO can say anything he wants PRIOR TO and AFTER the official range commands have been given. So anything before "Make Read" and after "Range is Clear," is not a part of the range commands and thus isn't something to be confused as such. I feel like it's discourteous to say anything other than "make ready" before someone's run. Too much can go wrong and while, of course, it's up to the shooter to wait for make ready, the one time I deviated from this method the shooter drew his gun on "going hot" and I'm certain I felt much worse than he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Again, something needs to be clear here....... The RO can say "Range is going hot," "Do you understand the course of fire," and/or "Did you have coffee this morning?" The RO can say anything he wants PRIOR TO and AFTER the official range commands have been given. So anything before "Make Ready" and after "Range is Clear," is not a part of the range commands and thus isn't something to be confused as such. True ... But in so doing it HAS happened that the shooter misunderstood what the RO said and THOUGHT he was told to Make Ready. This is especially problematic on noisy ranges and/or with shooters whose first language is not English. (BTW - That's NOT a crime!) And that is the reason why using the proper range commands are so important......for someone that doesn't speak English, all they are hearing is jibberish. But they understand which jibberish is "Make Ready" and etc. So if you butcher up the commands, it can cause an issue with that particular shooter. But in the case of the shooter being DQ'ed for thinking the RO said "Make Ready," that is a judgment call that can only be determined by the folks there.....in case there was a strong potential for the confusion. Generally speaking, unless the shooter clearly hears "Make Ready," he should simply confirm with the RO that that command was given. But because of what was said prior to "Make Ready" is not and should never be used as an excuse.....as the official range commands have not yet begun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) [...] There are times when I use the old commands from many years ago. Probably my biggest goof is that I will say "slide forward" at times. I guess when you grow up saying it, it is hard to remove it from memory/habits. [...] Once again, and this time I looked it up in the oldest rule book in my collection (1995) ... "slide forward" has not been an official range command since I joined USPSA, and I suspect not before then. This is a case of something which has crept into the lexicon over time but was NEVER part of the official commands. I'm all for passing out reminder cards with the commands printed on them ... Tape them to the timers ... Tatoo them on your forearm ... Heck, maybe I should get a shirt made with the proper commands listed on the back so the RO can read them to me! Actually it was. I can't point to the exact time frame, but I started ROing in 88 and sometime in that time frame "slide down-hammer down" was part of the official range commands. Things change over time though, such as "load and make ready" is now simply "make ready". As NROI became official and the rules started to be refined, things like slide down were dropped since it was really hard to hammer down with that darn slide in the way. The question "do you understand the course of fire" was an attempt to build in some insurance from a shooter who screwed the pooch and then cried "I didn't understand, nobody told me, bla bla bla". Sometimes things were winged. The MD at one of the Nationals instructed us to not allow loaded sight picures. I asked what rule I could refer to if challenged, and was told "it is my match and I said so". So, often things were inserted into range commands or rules were sort of "made up" so to speak in the old days. Heck sometimes rules are still made up Edited March 23, 2012 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Out of respect to the hard working ROs in Alabama, I wonder if we could change the title of this thread to "RO commands" or something more general. That is a good idea. Because as Randall said earlier - this isn't about the Alabama match itself, this is more about an incident or two that apparently happened at this match but also happens in just about every match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moverfive Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 [...] There are times when I use the old commands from many years ago. Probably my biggest goof is that I will say "slide forward" at times. I guess when you grow up saying it, it is hard to remove it from memory/habits. [...] Once again, and this time I looked it up in the oldest rule book in my collection (1995) ... "slide forward" has not been an official range command since I joined USPSA, and I suspect not before then. This is a case of something which has crept into the lexicon over time but was NEVER part of the official commands. I'm all for passing out reminder cards with the commands printed on them ... Tape them to the timers ... Tatoo them on your forearm ... Heck, maybe I should get a shirt made with the proper commands listed on the back so the RO can read them to me! Yep, believe it or not......there are rule books that pre-date 1995. I could be off by a year or two, but I think that particular command was changed in 1994. The explanation for the rule change, as obvious as it is, how can you drop the hammer UNLESS the slide is forward? Thus "slide forward, hammer down" was redundant and thus shortened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobmysterious Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Out of respect to the hard working ROs in Alabama, I wonder if we could change the title of this thread to "RO commands" or something more general. I'm in favor of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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