So,why are all the limited guns I see .40's?

[Yardbird]

Years ago the major power factor was higher than it is now,175000 vrs todays 165000. Bullet and powder selection were not what they are now, and niether was pistol selection. There were lots of 9mm pistols with unsupported chambers that were dangerous at the pressures needed to make major even if they had the case capacity to do it. The only cases that really had enough case cap. were the 9x21 and the .38 super and the terrible 9x25, the 9x23, the TJ and SC didnt exist. See if you can find a defination for the term "super face",those were the guys who had little flecks of powder burned into thier faces and hands from blowing up supers trying to make major and create enough gas to drive the crude comps of the day. You had to have some brass to be a RO back then, there was a bomb in every squad So that brings us the the rules, back then there was no limited division, just open and a equipment race like you have never seen, todays hot gun and cartiage were outdated before you could get it blued. When Limited Div was formed decsiom was made to stop all that, the 9s were restricted to minor, .40 was the smallest major cartige and right or wrong, good or bad thats where we stand today. So its a safety thing and a cost contaiment thing and I, for one hope it stays that way.----------Larry

9x21 has the same case capacity as 9x19. The case is longer but the cartridge is generally loaded to the same length.

[Nik Habicht]

Don't rush by that 9x23 caliber so quick. Cor-Bon has joined Winchester and is now loading 9x23 ammo. Winchester & Starline make 9x23 brass. VV has got some great load data. Takes that boring .40 off the table!

Except you'd still be scored Minor.

I'll take boring .40 Major, thank you.

So Limited guns are limited to being .40 to .45 bore to shoot MAJOR? If a smaller caliber is used, less points are available? Did i get this right? Sorry for the stupid question.

David, see the rules Appendix D2 Line 5. They lay out the requirements for caliber and power factor for Limited. Rulebook

So i read all four apendix's. Why bother shooting less than a .40 in Limited if you can't make Major. Why is a sub .40 gun even mentioned in the Limited Apendix?

Because there are people who like to shoot 9mm. Yes, they can only make Minor but they can still compete in the division.

Last stupid question, no disrespect intended, Can you win that Match shooting 9mm?

At the top, no. For a class win -- maybe, but the match needs to really favor the added capacity of the nine....

If you have two competitors duking it out who are close in ability, the guy shooting major wins more than he loses....

[david s]

Years ago the major power factor was higher than it is now,175000 vrs todays 165000. Bullet and powder selection were not what they are now, and niether was pistol selection. There were lots of 9mm pistols with unsupported chambers that were dangerous at the pressures needed to make major even if they had the case capacity to do it. The only cases that really had enough case cap. were the 9x21 and the .38 super and the terrible 9x25, the 9x23, the TJ and SC didnt exist. See if you can find a defination for the term "super face",those were the guys who had little flecks of powder burned into thier faces and hands from blowing up supers trying to make major and create enough gas to drive the crude comps of the day. You had to have some brass to be a RO back then, there was a bomb in every squad So that brings us the the rules, back then there was no limited division, just open and a equipment race like you have never seen, todays hot gun and cartiage were outdated before you could get it blued. When Limited Div was formed decsiom was made to stop all that, the 9s were restricted to minor, .40 was the smallest major cartige and right or wrong, good or bad thats where we stand today. So its a safety thing and a cost contaiment thing and I, for one hope it stays that way.----------Larry

Shooting 9x23 OR 9x25 out of a non- ramped fully supported barrel is not something i want to try out. But that introduced the fully supported systems in most 9mm and 38 Super in most manufactures now. Les Baer is now offering .45 guns with fully supported and ramped barrels. STI even using Shueman barrels of any flavor.

Since we have addressed the old safety issues, is it time to revisit the caliber issue in Limited? We talk about cost containment but what if we didn't have to have a propritary gun just to shoot Limited. Someone from another shooting disapline could bring their gun to Limited. More shooters, less cost

Both Winchester and Cor-Bon still make 9x23 ammo. Both using a 124gr bullet at 1460fps & 587ftlbs. I had my fully ramped supported 9mm barrel reamed to 9x23. Runs factory ammo great and i've been reloading with Winchester 9x23 new brass. Have not worked up to a full power load yet but i think i can make Major without loading to factory specs?

[ts1911]

All about preference, I think the vintage article is made up anyway. The guy who wrote that probably is the wormy guy he is talking about. Give it a break. They are all good. I shoot-em all.

[392heminut]

That's what i was looking for. Why score one caliber different than the others, when all could be loaded to Major? Do They fell that 9mm or 38 S/C loaded to Major is more accurate say than .40 Major?

The way I understood it was that Open Div. was just that, open to innovation and experimentation and basically anything goes. Limited Div.(and Lim.10, Prod. & S.S.)was based on what was available off the shelf. There were no 9mm off the shelf loads available that would make major PF, therefore 9mm is scored minor PF in all divisions except Open.

[Lee King]

Self edit to remove pointless statement

Edited March 8, 2012 by Lee King

[david s]

That's what i was looking for. Why score one caliber different than the others, when all could be loaded to Major? Do They fell that 9mm or 38 S/C loaded to Major is more accurate say than .40 Major?

The way I understood it was that Open Div. was just that, open to innovation and experimentation and basically anything goes. Limited Div.(and Lim.10, Prod. & S.S.)was based on what was available off the shelf. There were no 9mm off the shelf loads available that would make major PF, therefore 9mm is scored minor PF in all divisions except Open.

That makes sense. Thanks

[OperationHitFactor]

I'd be pissed if 38 SC was allowed in limited. Then starline would really always be out of brass.

[waddo29]

Both of my limited guns are .40 S&W for the sole purpose to make power factor in USPSA. That and I have no interest in shooting a 45.

[mpolans]

Years ago the major power factor was higher than it is now,175000 vrs todays 165000. Bullet and powder selection were not what they are now, and niether was pistol selection. There were lots of 9mm pistols with unsupported chambers that were dangerous at the pressures needed to make major even if they had the case capacity to do it. The only cases that really had enough case cap. were the 9x21 and the .38 super and the terrible 9x25, the 9x23, the TJ and SC didnt exist. See if you can find a defination for the term "super face",those were the guys who had little flecks of powder burned into thier faces and hands from blowing up supers trying to make major and create enough gas to drive the crude comps of the day. You had to have some brass to be a RO back then, there was a bomb in every squad So that brings us the the rules, back then there was no limited division, just open and a equipment race like you have never seen, todays hot gun and cartiage were outdated before you could get it blued. When Limited Div was formed decsiom was made to stop all that, the 9s were restricted to minor, .40 was the smallest major cartige and right or wrong, good or bad thats where we stand today. So its a safety thing and a cost contaiment thing and I, for one hope it stays that way.----------Larry

9x21 has the same case capacity as 9x19. The case is longer but the cartridge is generally loaded to the same length.

True. Back in the day, USPSA made a rule that specifically banned 9x19 major, so the Springfield shooters at the time, TGO, Doug Koenig, etc started shooting small frame Tanfoglios badged as P9 World Cups in 9x21 to get around the rule. 9x21 itself is a "cheater" caliber designed to get around BS laws banning civilian ownership of firearms in military calibers in some countries; it is identical to 9x19 in every way except for 2mm of case length. Then, about a year or two later, Chip McCormick started marketing a fancy new half polymer, half steel Frame kit called the 2011. The rest (including the P9) is history.

Edited March 11, 2012 by mpolans

[david s]

Isn't that bannig a little old school since PF is now 165? I'm sure we have "off the Shelf" ammo that makes Major PF now?

Edited March 11, 2012 by david s

[jmbaccolyte]

Davis S.,

I don't know about the 9 x 23mm, but Hodgdon lists their fastest 9x 19 mm, 125 grain reload as 1,160 feet per second for a 145 power factor at stock O.A.L. And it takes 1,320 fps to make 165pf (if my math is correct-never my strong point)..

Of course you can make Major under the old standard of 175pf with a 9 x 19 mm, lots of 9mm Major reload data out there. Not factory loads though, because they are over SAAMI spec pressure levels of course.

Edited March 27, 2012 by jmbaccolyte

[mpolans]

IIRC, the only 9x19 load I've ever seen in a manual that made major was one involving a 130gr. head and Vihtavuori 3n37 or 3n38, in an old Vihtavuori reloading manual, and even that load was pulled from subsequent editions of the manual.

Regardless, minimum diameter for major is .400, and I'm hoping it stays that way.

[david s]

IIRC, the only 9x19 load I've ever seen in a manual that made major was one involving a 130gr. head and Vihtavuori 3n37 or 3n38, in an old Vihtavuori reloading manual, and even that load was pulled from subsequent editions of the manual.

Regardless, minimum diameter for major is .400, and I'm hoping it stays that way.

I don't reload any 9mm. Bought some DCAMMO 9mm Major, 124grCMJ bullet. Rated on the end flap: 172PF--4.25" barrel/176PF---5" barrel? No idea what powder he's using and Doug's not telling.

Edited March 29, 2012 by david s