Introducing PractiScore

[euxx]

I have to say I intensely dislike this idea. If you choose to support it, make it an option in the match configuration. I can assure you, I'd NEVER use it.

JC, you could use it for entering results from paper score sheets...

[jcwren]

Buttons do that? I'm going to get a Nook out and see what it is you are talking about. I don't use them much, but I have done 4 or 5 matches with them as tests and never noticed that.

Whenever I see people swiping the screen to scroll on a NOOK, I try to educate them about the buttons. I don't like swiping, as it's possible to introduce data errors.

The other thing I try to teach them is you really don't *have* to wait for the screen to update. Tap 'A' twice, it'll increment twice. As long as you're checking as you go along, it's not a problem, and it's a lot faster.

[jcwren]

I have to say I intensely dislike this idea. If you choose to support it, make it an option in the match configuration. I can assure you, I'd NEVER use it.

JC, you could use it for entering results from paper score sheets...

Paper what? I have no idea what you're talking about. I use Practiscore

[euxx]

Paper what? I have no idea what you're talking about. I use Practiscore

Just saying. I see people entering scores from paper into PractiScore. Either for comparing their own scores at matches that scoring on paper or to do results without using ezws or winmss...

[jcwren]

Paper what? I have no idea what you're talking about. I use Practiscore

Just saying. I see people entering scores from paper into PractiScore. Either for comparing their own scores at matches that scoring on paper or to do results without using ezws or winmss...

Paper scoring at matches... That's the living in the dark ages. Probably black-powder/cap'n'ball matches...

Seriously, if I had to go back to paper for scoring, I'd probably quit shooting matches. I am *so* over that.

[wgnoyes]

We're using paper now for backup scoresheets, and have designed them in such a way that, if it all went to hell, we COULD score that match in ezws with them.

I like the idea. We default to assuming all the steel has been successfully engaged, why not paper targets as well.

As a compromise thought, how about you show all the detail target lines like you do now, but already filled in with 2-alpha, and then per target the guy with the, um "clip" board can just tap a 'c' text box when he hears 'alpha-charlie'. That seems like it would answer any concerns about having a complete record of the competitor's performance, and I think it would significantly speed up scoring of the stage, even with the (I'm gonna say it) slow graphics on the nooks.

But it does need to be a configurable option, I agree with that.

[euxx]

Bill, I am curious, when was last time you scored a stage at a real match outside of stats shack?

[wgnoyes]

Let's see..... TWO DAYS AGO?!?!!!! Anything else about my qualifications you care to question?!

[jcwren]

Let's see..... TWO DAYS AGO?!?!!!! Anything else about my qualifications you care to question?!

I think Bill has scored every USPSA match South River Gun Club has had, excepting one or two. You rarely shoot the matches, but always scores them, right Bill?

[euxx]

Bill, no one said anything about your qualification and you didn't have to shout. As I said, I was just curious.

Flex did a good write up on it, so there isn't much to add. Human's short memory is an interesting thing, it can only remember few things at a time. When scoring on paper you have a visual marker what next target to score. With pre-populated scores you won't have such marker anymore and it will be easy to loose track after any distraction (e.g. scoring overlay call or scoring corrections).

In any case, if you like, I can make a test build just for you to use at your matches. Then you can share your experience with us.

[wgnoyes]

Flex was responding to a single line summary showing number of A's, B's, C's, etc. That's different from what I suggested. You apparently misread what I wrote, I'll try again:

How about you show all the detail target lines like you do now, but already filled in with 2-alpha, and then per target the guy with the, um "clip" board can just tap a 'c' text box when he hears 'alpha-charlie'. That seems like it would answer any concerns about having a complete record of the competitor's performance, and I think it would significantly speed up scoring of the stage, even with the (I'm gonna say it) slow graphics on the nooks.

How about an additional thought? Present the target lines already filled in with 2-alpha, but color-coded white like they are now in iOS to show an unscored target, and when the CRO calls out "T1: 2-alpha", and the operator taps on the T1 circle to the left of the alpha-column to mark that the target has been scored (turns green), or on "alpha-charlie" tap the C-textbox, it takes away 1 alpha, adds the 1 charlie, and turns the line green. (The operator also calls back the score to the CRO, of course.)

It's called brainstorming, so please don't just dismiss it out of hand.

[wgnoyes]

I think Bill has scored every USPSA match South River Gun Club has had, excepting one or two. You rarely shoot the matches, but always scores them, right Bill?

That's right; you've kind of dropped into that boat too of late, I think?

[euxx]

Flex was responding to a single line summary showing number of A's, B's, C's, etc. That's different from what I suggested. You apparently misread what I wrote ...

It's called brainstorming, so please don't just dismiss it out of hand.

I didn't misread anything. Just two steps ahead of you.

Let's step back for a second. What issue we are trying to solve? It doesn't seem like you'll save much tapping with your approach.

PS: android version does change row color when target score is complete. But maybe you can't see it on greyscale screen.

[wgnoyes]

SIGH......

You know this is Ken Nelson's idea, right? He and I talked about it and other things yesterday on the phone along with Devin.

So you're telling me, if I display 8 target lines already filled out with 2-alpha and colored white for "not scored", and the shooter's score is T1-2A, T2-AC, T3-2A, T4-2A, T5-AD, T6-2A, T7-2A, T8-2A

T1 tap the target number once = 1, turns green

T2 tap the C box once = 1, turns green

T3 tap the target number once = 1, turns green

T4 tap the target number once = 1, turns green

T5 tap the D box once = 1, turns green

T6 tap the target number once = 1, turns green

T7 tap the target number once = 1, turns green

T8 tap the target number once = 1, turns green

For a total of 8 taps, and you're done....

You're actually telling me that you don't think that saving 50% of the number of taps required on the scoring screen is saving much? Really?!

Yes, I know the row color (grey-scale shade) changes when target scoring is complete in android.

[gng4life]

I see where you are getting at but honestly, I think it will promote "lazy" scoring. When the RO starts going too fast or if the scorekeeper gets a little distracted, they may have a tendency to just keep the Alphas and keep going. Especially with as slow as the Nooks are. That's good for the shooter but not fair to everyone else. If I had a vote in this, I would still vote "no" either way. It just forces the scorekeeper to make a better attempt of getting the correct score in the boxes.

[wgnoyes]

Well, in an ideal world (or at least at a major match), the guy with the clipboard is supposed to be calling back the scores whether its being recorded on paper or on tablet. They do that as a cross-check of one another and it slows down a CRO that might otherwise go blazing through yelling "2,2,2,2,AC,2,2,2,etc". Personally, I don't let them do that. Someone calls out "2" to me, I call back "two WHAT?"

[jdphotoguy]

I for one am vehemently opposed to assuming the shooter has all Alphas and only changing the targets where that isn't the case. It will lead to lots of scoring errors and confusion and I don't see a huge time benefit either.

Edited August 7, 2013 by jdphotoguy

[euxx]

You're actually telling me that you don't think that saving 50% of the number of taps required on the scoring screen is saving much? Really?!

Bill, you only looked at the ideal scenario. No mikes, no penalties, no corrections, no need to reset row to original state. When you add all of that it won't be as nice as you described. It is, of course, doable, but in my opinion the end result will be significantly more confusing than it is now.

[jester121]

Now that I think about it more -- another reason I'm opposed to this, even adding it as an option, is that we're adding an unnecessary wrinkle to what is fast becoming a standardized scoring method nationwide. Around here the same die hard guys show up to shoot (and score) at 4-5 different clubs per month for matches, and we all use Nooks. Right now, I know all of them can go to any match anywhere in the country and be 100% comfortable being a clipboard stand -- we're either going to use paper, or tappity-tap-tap scoring on an Android or IOS device (does anyone even use Palm scoring any more?) We can pitch in and run squads. I can volunteer to work a major match and feel 100% comfortable with scoring because it's the same as our range back home.

If we start tossing different flavors of score entry in (why stop at one?) then we get into regional variations and local customs. Suddenly the guys I've trained who are now experts at dealing with Nooks can't just slide in and score a match in Georgia, or a particular Area match, because they use a modified scoring method. Sure, they can pick it up after a while, but instead of being universal it becomes universally complicated.

After 20 years in the technology industry, I can safely say that one of the most important elements of successful software development is knowing that it's okay to say "no, sorry" to enhancement requests sometimes.

[jester121]

You're actually telling me that you don't think that saving 50% of the number of taps required on the scoring screen is saving much? Really?!

Why would it save time when you're simultaneously calling back scores and tapping on the screen? Once you get into a rhythm on a stage we're talking about fractions of a second.

I also don't understand what's broken that we're trying to fix. Even a scoring novice can see the similarities of a blank sheet of paper and a blank Nook screen. I think this makes it harder to get new people up to speed on the scoring, and almost impossible for someone to lean over their shoulder and help them fix a scoring error on the fly.

[Mark R]

You're actually telling me that you don't think that saving 50% of the number of taps required on the scoring screen is saving much? Really?!

Why would it save time when you're simultaneously calling back scores and tapping on the screen? Once you get into a rhythm on a stage we're talking about fractions of a second.

I also don't understand what's broken that we're trying to fix. Even a scoring novice can see the similarities of a blank sheet of paper and a blank Nook screen. I think this makes it harder to get new people up to speed on the scoring, and almost impossible for someone to lean over their shoulder and help them fix a scoring error on the fly.

+1 I don't think scoring on the Nooks is the hard part. What most new scorekeepers have problems with is either trying to press too hard hoping the screen will react faster or using the scroll buttons. Once they master those two areas, scoring is a breeze...as it stands now. Throwing a monkey wrench in the equation now will only complicate things. Let's concentrate on the real bugs and get-r-done!

[Flexmoney]

Flex was responding to a single line summary showing number of A's, B's, C's, etc. That's different from what I suggested. You apparently misread what I wrote, I'll try again:

How about you show all the detail target lines like you do now, but already filled in with 2-alpha, and then per target the guy with the, um "clip" board can just tap a 'c' text box when he hears 'alpha-charlie'. That seems like it would answer any concerns about having a complete record of the competitor's performance, and I think it would significantly speed up scoring of the stage, even with the (I'm gonna say it) slow graphics on the nooks.

That gives the same issue. How will I know if I am on T6 or T7 (my guys shoot mostly alphas )

How about an additional thought? Present the target lines already filled in with 2-alpha, but color-coded white like they are now in iOS to show an unscored target, and when the CRO calls out "T1: 2-alpha", and the operator taps on the T1 circle to the left of the alpha-column to mark that the target has been scored (turns green), or on "alpha-charlie" tap the C-textbox, it takes away 1 alpha, adds the 1 charlie, and turns the line green. (The operator also calls back the score to the CRO, of course.)

It's called brainstorming, so please don't just dismiss it out of hand.

Hmm, changing colors would let us know which target we are on. But, I not sure of the benefit? If it is 2A, I still have to tap the a box (can't I just tap the Alpha box twice...not a big time waste). If it is Alpha-Charlie, I still would have to do 2 taps.

Plus, you'd be adding an extra box. Thus, making things smaller to fit the screen, maybe.

[Flexmoney]

Now that I think about it more -- another reason I'm opposed to this, even adding it as an option, is that we're adding an unnecessary wrinkle to what is fast becoming a standardized scoring method nationwide. Around here the same die hard guys show up to shoot (and score) at 4-5 different clubs per month for matches, and we all use Nooks. Right now, I know all of them can go to any match anywhere in the country and be 100% comfortable being a clipboard stand -- we're either going to use paper, or tappity-tap-tap scoring on an Android or IOS device (does anyone even use Palm scoring any more?) We can pitch in and run squads. I can volunteer to work a major match and feel 100% comfortable with scoring because it's the same as our range back home.

If we start tossing different flavors of score entry in (why stop at one?) then we get into regional variations and local customs. Suddenly the guys I've trained who are now experts at dealing with Nooks can't just slide in and score a match in Georgia, or a particular Area match, because they use a modified scoring method. Sure, they can pick it up after a while, but instead of being universal it becomes universally complicated.

After 20 years in the technology industry, I can safely say that one of the most important elements of successful software development is knowing that it's okay to say "no, sorry" to enhancement requests sometimes.

VERY good points.

[wgnoyes]

Now that I think about it more -- another reason I'm opposed to this, even adding it as an option, is that we're adding an unnecessary wrinkle to what is fast becoming a standardized scoring method nationwide. ...

If we start tossing different flavors of score entry in (why stop at one?) then we get into regional variations and local customs. Suddenly the guys I've trained who are now experts at dealing with Nooks can't just slide in and score a match in Georgia, or a particular Area match, because they use a modified scoring method. Sure, they can pick it up after a while, but instead of being universal it becomes universally complicated.

After 20 years in the technology industry, I can safely say that one of the most important elements of successful software development is knowing that it's okay to say "no, sorry" to enhancement requests sometimes.

That's why it would be a configurable option. You don't HAVE to use it.

You're actually telling me that you don't think that saving 50% of the number of taps required on the scoring screen is saving much? Really?!

Bill, you only looked at the ideal scenario. No mikes, no penalties, no corrections, no need to reset row to original state. When you add all of that it won't be as nice as you described. It is, of course, doable, but in my opinion the end result will be significantly more confusing than it is now.

I notice you didn't really have an answer to saving keystrokes. Pre-filled out 2-A and the actual score is C-Mike, tap the C-Mike as usual. Nothing's changed there.

Flex was responding to a single line summary showing number of A's, B's, C's, etc. That's different from what I suggested. You apparently misread what I wrote, I'll try again:

How about you show all the detail target lines like you do now, but already filled in with 2-alpha, and then per target the guy with the, um "clip" board can just tap a 'c' text box when he hears 'alpha-charlie'. That seems like it would answer any concerns about having a complete record of the competitor's performance, and I think it would significantly speed up scoring of the stage, even with the (I'm gonna say it) slow graphics on the nooks.

That gives the same issue. How will I know if I am on T6 or T7 (my guys shoot mostly alphas )

Because you're tapping on a line that's label circle-6 or circle-7, the way it is now. (Color-coded response to stand out amidst your multiquote response

How about an additional thought? Present the target lines already filled in with 2-alpha, but color-coded white like they are now in iOS to show an unscored target, and when the CRO calls out "T1: 2-alpha", and the operator taps on the T1 circle to the left of the alpha-column to mark that the target has been scored (turns green), or on "alpha-charlie" tap the C-textbox, it takes away 1 alpha, adds the 1 charlie, and turns the line green. (The operator also calls back the score to the CRO, of course.)

It's called brainstorming, so please don't just dismiss it out of hand.

Hmm, changing colors would let us know which target we are on. But, I not sure of the benefit? If it is 2A, I still have to tap the a box (can't I just tap the Alpha box twice...not a big time waste). If it is Alpha-Charlie, I still would have to do 2 taps.

No you don't, tap the target number. Like you said, most of your guys shoot all-A's!

Plus, you'd be adding an extra box. Thus, making things smaller to fit the screen, maybe.

I didn't say anything about an extra box, tap the target number. Long-press it like you do now to clear the target entirely.

Plus (topic shift) and we've been badly needing this for a long time, we still need a method of completely clearing out a competitor's score for those times where the operator mistakenly taps the wrong competitor name in a squad listing and starts scoring and doesn't realize it until after they've finished scoring. This happens at least once in EVERY match I've seen. Sometimes it's the competitor that catches it rather than the operator. At one time we didn't have this ability in ezwinscore, eiither, and THAT was a pain in the ass when you keypunched a score into the wrong guy (finger-glitches happen!) and enough of us jumped up and down that we got it added. It was a small thing but EXTREMELY useful. We need that in practiscore too, please, in both android and iOS. If there isn't already a problem ticket in for this, please let me know and I'll put one in, but I think there is. I'll happily trade Ken's rapid score entry method for THIS feature!

And by the way, I just found by hunt-and-poke that if you hit the practiscore icon/back button in the upper-lefthand corner, you CAN get out of a wrong shooter if you haven't finished scoring him yet. Nice feature, thank you. Wish we had been told about this. Was it in a release's change listing?

Added: apparent not. Chris Wren had no idea this existed, either. I'm reminded of a quote from the title character in Dr. Strangelove: "But the whole point of the doomsday machine... is lost.... IF YOU KEEP IT A SECRET! VHY DIDN'T YOU TELL THE WORLD, JA?!"

Edited August 7, 2013 by wgnoyes

[jcwren]

Buttons do that? I'm going to get a Nook out and see what it is you are talking about. I don't use them much, but I have done 4 or 5 matches with them as tests and never noticed that.

I can't believe you didn't know about these hardware scrolling buttons on Nooks.

And while we are at it, in 1.2 android version there is a new and bigger "Back" button in the top left corner. Should help people with bigger fingers. Though I've been told it is hard to notice it.

BTW, your target scoring idea could be useful for entering scores from the paper scoresheets (for those who can't or don't want to use devices at stages). Similar to what ezws has.

I went back and examined this, and both on the NOOKs and on my Galaxy S4, I would have NEVER thought to tap the icon to move backwards. The little '<' is totally lost on both devices.

Now, I'm not complaining, it's a great addition. But I promise that virtually no one will ever figure that out on their own.

Now that its there, I'll start training our people to use it, instead of the little reverse fish-hook at the top-center of the NOOK screens.

Subtle doesn't even BEGIN to describe that little button