Ken N. Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 If I read this correct, how will the Nooks read back to the scorekeeper. Mine don't have speakers. They wouldn't be able to do this. But you can see the Nook okay, this is proposed as a help for glare. Ken N. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 They wouldn't be able to do this. But you can see the Nook okay, this is proposed as a help for glare. Not in a stock configuration, but there is an $8 usb audio card that been reported to work with Nooks. Though I won't recommend it. See http://mikecanex.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/renates-ultimate-hacked-nook-touch/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) Wait, hold on.... The Nationals is going to be scored with Practiscore? Yep. (-: It will be nice. Emails/texts instantly to shooters. Complete score logging. 1 hour arb period, ready to go. And I'm the MD, and Devin Pitcher (aka Mr. PractiScore iOS) is Stats Dude. Ken N. Wow, congratulations! When was that decision made? How did you convince Phil Strader? Are you running all-ios? Is Joy Hyden playing any part in this? Edited August 8, 2013 by wgnoyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Wait, hold on.... The Nationals is going to be scored with Practiscore? Yep. (-: It will be nice. Emails/texts instantly to shooters. Complete score logging. 1 hour arb period, ready to go. And I'm the MD, and Devin Pitcher (aka Mr. PractiScore iOS) is Stats Dude. Ken N. Wow, congratulations! When was that decision made? How did you convince Phil Strader? Are you running all-ios? Is Joy Hyden playing any part in this? They invited me to the last board meeting. We spent about 3 hours reviewing PractiScore, and various USPSA/SSC/SCSA needs, and it went from there. It's gonna be all iOS, although I'll have a Nook or 2 (or 20) available for ROs that prefer them. Joy isn't, to my knowledge. She's welcome to help if she wants. Devin will be stats, and we will have a local person handling organization of all the records. BTW: I enjoyed the boardmeeting and the reception was very positive, and I was welcomed to stick around after the PS part and contribute on other stuff as well. Very nice of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Ken, but Nooks won't have score logging feature... unless you have some plan B or will talk to me real soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Guys, Guys, Guys........... I have been watching this conversation for the last week or so with a mixture of humor and disgust. Have any of you heard of the saying "the Great is the enemy of the Good". You guys are trying to add icing to this cake before it is fully baked!!!!!!! Having A's pre-populated in the scoring page to save a couple of clicks???? Who are you stroking? Would you consider that with paper forms? Dumb Idea. I have some VERY old shooters scoring matches, and not a one has a problem with touching the screen twice, and calling back the scores themselves. They even cope with the slight delay with the Nooks. Big Fingers? We provide Stylus's if they want. Stop worrying about how many touches it takes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PS is already 100 miles ahead of paper scoring!!!!!!!!! I shot three matches down in Arizona last month while visiting, and there in the Meca of our sport NO ONE is using PS. WHY? Most of the matches shoot rolling squadding - You show up to a stage, you go to the bottom of the current bunch of shooters on the stage, when you are done shooting you move to the next stage and join in there. FIND A WAY to accommodate that sort of shooting. Start working on a way to customize the shooting order, instead of just alphabetical, etc. Sometime we have to split up shooters (father, son, etc) because they are sharing equipment. New shooters that want to shoot last for the first couple of stages, etc. Now, while we are happy with the current system, the ability to set a custom shooting order would be very useful for many clubs. Just saying, Guys, quite Guilding the Lilly. You have a Wonderful System - work on substantive changes and break fixes. Like JC and a few others I will never run a match without PS. Mark K Edited August 9, 2013 by Mark K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Mark - thanks. re: Phoenix... they are working on it. They run a large state match size event every Tuesday, with open squadding. All the matches there are underway towards using PS. And we will be using it for Area 2 as well. We are actively working on solutions for open squadding. re: new features I triage problems into show stopper, accuracy, sport growth, & convenience. Those aren't the Mantis descriptions (bug tracking system), but that's how I think of them. Show stopper meaning you can't score (crash) . Accuracy meaning, data entry errors or incorrect reports, sport growth being things like adding Steel Challenge, IDPA, and convenience, pretty much everything else. Every release has elements from each level of urgency, generally. PS is now in use all over the place, I see a lot of feedback from all over. The #1 complaint that affects actual scoring accuracy is glare. So I'm casting about trying to find an answer. Looking at the screen less, and having what you look at bigger is a possible answer. I'd MUCH prefer a shade answer, or a reasonable native Android e-ink tablet over software changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Ken, Yes, in all the locations I shot, when they found out we had been using PS for over a year, (Prescott with Dave Thomas) and at Rio Salado (Pete Carstensen), the interrogated me extensively. With all it's warts - I still think the Nook is the best scoring device in sunny locals. Maybe not so much in very wet locals. iPad is the best Master device. Keep up the great work. Edited August 9, 2013 by Mark K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Just an observation... You don't have to use PS to maintain competitor order. A white board with a dry erase marker or good old paper still work just fine. Some of our matches are using the same list of competitors every time (usually people who shoot matches before) and scorer just have to find next shooter in that long list. If there is a new shooter not from the list, he'll add a new walk trough (on each device) or can also use one of "New Shooter 01...30" entries created for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Just an observation... You don't have to use PS to maintain competitor order. A white board with a dry erase marker or good old paper still work just fine.Some of our matches are using the same list of competitors every time (usually people who shoot matches before) and scorer just have to find next shooter in that long list. If there is a new shooter not from the list, he'll add a new walk trough (on each device) or can also use one of "New Shooter 01...30" entries created for that. I agree. Just saying...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 It's not necessarily something that will go into the app, but I couldn't resist to try it. So, here we go: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Please God, NO!! Serri - what is my hit factor? Mark K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 They invited me to the last board meeting. We spent about 3 hours reviewing PractiScore, and various USPSA/SSC/SCSA needs, and it went from there. It's gonna be all iOS, although I'll have a Nook or 2 (or 20) available for ROs that prefer them. Joy isn't, to my knowledge. She's welcome to help if she wants. Devin will be stats, and we will have a local person handling organization of all the records. BTW: I enjoyed the boardmeeting and the reception was very positive, and I was welcomed to stick around after the PS part and contribute on other stuff as well. Very nice of them. What are you planning to use for a backup scoresheet? if you don't already have something, here's what we use: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qwvutc8ouqzvkhq/practiscore%20lvl2-3%20stage%20summary%20scoresheet.pptx.pdf it's based on the ezwinscore scoresheet so people are already familiar with it. And the fields are arranged on it in the same way as in practiscore, so it's just a matter of copying the numbers from one screen to the exact same positions on the paper. That is, no search and hunt to write the correct number in the correct box like you have on the fortune cookie slips of paper scoresheets. It simplifies the effort and (hopefully) makes it less error-prone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 ... Having A's pre-populated in the scoring page to save a couple of clicks???? Who are you stroking? Would you consider that with paper forms? ... ... Non sequitor. You'd have to erase the 2-alpha on paper to write down A-C. Bad example. I shot three matches down in Arizona last month while visiting, and there in the Meca of our sport NO ONE is using PS. WHY? Most of the matches shoot rolling squadding - You show up to a stage, you go to the bottom of the current bunch of shooters on the stage, when you are done shooting you move to the next stage and join in there. FIND A WAY to accommodate that sort of shooting. Okay, first of all, they've hashed out machine-maintained shooter orders here before, which much the same results as in this week's discussion about Ken's single line paper entry option. I'm not saying that's a bad idea; please, go ahead and put it in. But, you don't HAVE to select competitors from a squad. Just go into the "all shooters" list and pick them from there. You can already do this. It's amusing and worrisome at the same time (because I don't want people changing competitor records in the field) to watch a match progress and the squad at EVERY stage moves a shooter to their squad from the "all shooters" list instead of just going to the "all shooters" list and scoring the one wandering shoot through guy FROM THERE. Start working on a way to customize the shooting order, instead of just alphabetical, etc. Sometime we have to split up shooters (father, son, etc) because they are sharing equipment. New shooters that want to shoot last for the first couple of stages, etc. Now, while we are happy with the current system, the ability to set a custom shooting order would be very useful for many clubs. Or use the paper backup scoresheets we give to competitors to maintain their shooting order the way they've done for decades already. Plus a machine-maintained shooting order is useless if you leave the nook/ios device at the stage (which my recommendation, you should), as you'll just have to put it in again on the next stage. If you're carrying the nooks around with the squads.... okay, you can do that and either use the scoresheets again or just write your names down on a piece of paper. But consider that if a stage-bound nook suddenly craps out beyond recovery, well, that's bad but you've only lost a single stage. If a squad-bound nook suddenly crashes and you can't get anything off of it, NOW you've lost the entire match for those 12 or so competitors, and that's FAR WORSE. ----------------------- No one can EVER convince me that Ken Nelson's original idea (let's go back to that) of a single line OPTIONAL scoring screen (12 targets, 2 on each) showing 24-A's pre-populated for the purpose of putting in a score from paper is NOT a good idea. Have you ever put in a score from paper? (Someone finds a way to not save a guy's score, but you fortunately have it on the backup sheet.) Sucks, doesn't it, having to translate a terse 17-A, 6-C, 1-D, and a no-shoot onto a regular practiscore scoring screen. Taptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptaptap-wishsomeonehadawayofprepopulatingallthesealphas-taptaptaptaptaptap-etc...., throw in some C's, toss in a D, oh and the no-shoot. Peck at it until it all finally turns green or whatever greyscale that becomes. Yeah, that was fun; thank you, sir, may I have another. Ken's single line paper entry system: tap 6-C's, 1-D, 1-NS, you're done! NOW we're talking 8 taps v. 25; tell me that's not a savings! Obviously now we're not going to get this feature, but you can't tell me it's a bad idea, because it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Please God, NO!! Serri - what is my hit factor? Mark K Siri has a better voice than that, but that one certainly is loud enough for double hearing protection. And would you extend that to read off all the particulars on the summary page as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken N. Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Thanks Bill - got a score sheet. Same principle, copy in exact order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Please God, NO!! Serri - what is my hit factor? Now you just gave me more ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 You know, it occurs to me. If you all get USPSA to allow classifier activity and match uploads to uspsa.org, my last personal-life reason for keeping windows around at all in any form will have just taken a major hit amidships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Bill, will I get your Windows hardware once that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Thanks Bill - got a score sheet. Same principle, copy in exact order. I only offered because some years back they ran the nationals off of palms and had fortune cookie slips of paper. Just wanted to make sure we weren't going down that path again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Bill, will I get your Windows hardware once that happen? Absolutely. Send me a sandisk 64gb usb drive and I'll put my "hardware" on it. That is, there IS no hardware; my windows "machine" runs as a guest operating system under vmware fusion on my iMac and macbook pro. Strange how windows runs better under this environment than it ever did on it's own physical hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark K Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 For monthly matches, where we have maybe 4 squads for 6 stages, we move our Nooks with the squads. We do not use paper backup (except for at the sectional, where we also leave the Nooks on the stage). But, what we do at ALL of our matches is, the Match Directory is Frequently syncing the scores from the Nooks to the Master. After more than a year, we have yet to lose any data. Guys, I agree, a slip of paper or a white board for squad order is a simple solution for those that are worried about it, and that is what we do for something like the Sectional. For our situation, I don't think anyone at our matches has ever complained about Random or Alpha sorting, and if there is some reason to change the order, they just do it mentally. Mark K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) Siri: Charlie Mike Shooter: Siri - That is a double. Siri - Bull shoot. I checked the hole concentircity, suck it up. Edited August 9, 2013 by blind bat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 (edited) By the way, while we are discussing changes for target scoring, I believe I convinced Ken to agree to move steel scoring under targets table. So the first row will be called "Steel" and will only have A, M and NS columns. So, target scoring will look more like regular paper score sheet. .. For what it's worth, on a paper scoresheet, the steel appears at the bottom after the paper targets, but then again, you can see the entire set of targets on paper, not so on PS. Should I ask? Shouldn't I? What the hell.... Will the steel continue to be PRE-POPULATED WITH A-HITS like it is now? If not, why not? And regardless of that answer, will you continue to show Steel separately on the summary page? They already stopped doing that on iOS, and I firmly believe the ios and adroid versions should all do and act the same way. Edited August 9, 2013 by wgnoyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted August 9, 2013 Share Posted August 9, 2013 Bill, you can ask wathever you want, but at the end you'll be using what Ken will decide. PS: on paper score sheets we use here steel is always at the top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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