short_round Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I didn't stick around for the results so I cant give any of that information. You got second B in open. Bill has your plaque. CONGRATULATIONS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I shot with 3 of the top 6 finishers in Open, including the match winner. Pretty awesome display. Oh yeah, and his father won Revolver. Nobody arbitrated the illegal stage 8 huh? I kept my $100 bill in my wallet. Kinda ticks me off that I bent over backwards to make a standards stage legal for my section match and accommodated Amidon by making the whole match legal under the new rulebook (in July!) yet a freakin' Area match has an illegal stage. I banged my foo-foo Supertanker against two walls and shot two walls. It was a miracle that an understanding RO (Bruce Gary) didn't DQ me for the first one. The second one deserved it for getting in the way of the popper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Nobody arbitrated the illegal stage 8 huh? I kept my $100 bill in my wallet. Don't even get me started on Stage 8. "Might be a classifier" is sufficient enough to classify it as a legal Virginia Count stage? It fails the "short course" and "standard exercise" definitions. But wait..there's more.... When we shot Stage 8, we were told that we had to have two large rocks in the start box...which combined weighed probably 7 to 10 lbs. The CRO placed the box loaded with the rocks on your arms for you...and warned you to not drop the rocks on your feet...because they didn't have any first aid if you did. Later we find out that other shooter are starting WITHOUT rocks in the box. So we went and asked the RM if this was the case....he in turn went and talked to the stage RO and asked him...the stage RO told the RM that there was no requirement for rock in the box and it was the shooters option if they wanted them or not. Thats not what we were told...clearly the course had changed from when we shot it and others had shot it. USPSA rules are clear when a course changes (either reshoot it or toss it). The RM was indecisive on how things should proceed....we kinda pushed for the chance to reshoot it.....and the RM said he didn't know what to do. He didn't offer us the chance to reshoot it...and he didn't suggest anything about tossing the stage. Rather than causing turmoil....our squad decided to drop the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Our squad shot it last Saturday, with the box empty. FWIW, John Hill did one of the smartest things I have ever seen. He started in the right of the area, making his transitions for the right targets next to nothing. It's rare that you'll have that option with that kind of array, but when you do, it could be a few tenths difference. The other weird thing about that stage is we were scoring/taping my run and Chris Tilley asked me, "You shoot an eight minute [C-More] dot, don't you?" Why yes, I did. I guess he could tell by the 2 C & 2 D on the right of the 33 yard target with the no-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Kinda ticks me off that I bent over backwards to make a standards stage legal for my section match and accommodated Amidon by making the whole match legal under the new rulebook (in July!) yet a freakin' Area match has an illegal stage. Me too. Any one of these phrases (from CB) might be useful: Critter-related quotes: "I've been running around like a chicken with my legs cut off!" "The monkey is in their court." "There's more than one way to screw a cat!" "That really grinds my goat." "This guy is trying to pull the wool over the donkey's ass, and that is not where the wool goes." "I'm so angry I could eat a horse." "They're throwing us a blind herring." "You have to shoot where the fish are barking." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 It was a miracle that an understanding RO (Bruce Gary) didn't DQ me for the first one. Hey, if you'd done something that was DQable, I would have. But you didn't break the 180, banging into walls isn't against the rules, and... heck, even shooting walls isn't against the rules as long as you are engaging targets when you do it. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I'm just glad there is no Hosercam footage of that incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I banged my foo-foo Supertanker against two walls and shot two walls. He hates walls...stay away from the walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Well yeah, they were vengeance shots for getting in my way. (As if being struck by the Supertanker isn't payback enough. I took a piece out of the plywood on the Josey Wales stage. There's a small ding in the Dawson scope mount.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 As you can see, Erik has extended his demolition interests beyond the boundaries of his gun. He's now working on destroying scenery. Must be something to do with moving to Nevada. I'm glad they didn't toss out stage 8 since it was one stage that I shot decently ... and my box was full of rocks. General observation on ROs at this match: In my limited experience, this has been the largest range of RO ability I've seen in a single match. It ranged from excellent to clueless. Some people ran their stages superbly even in the face of some difficult and awkward designs. Some people made mistakes that we obvious to all watching. It was a fun match all in all and I'm glad I made the last minute decision to go!!! Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Dimaculangan Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 great match - awesome RO's - perfect range - and loved the weather =] I got to shoot with the friendliest people and under the nicest RO's who're just out there doing their jobs and having fun i am DEFINITELY coming back to this range (hopefully for another area 1??? =]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Nobody arbitrated the illegal stage 8 huh? I kept my $100 bill in my wallet. Don't even get me started on Stage 8. "Might be a classifier" is sufficient enough to classify it as a legal Virginia Count stage? It fails the "short course" and "standard exercise" definitions. But wait..there's more.... When we shot Stage 8, we were told that we had to have two large rocks in the start box...which combined weighed probably 7 to 10 lbs. The CRO placed the box loaded with the rocks on your arms for you...and warned you to not drop the rocks on your feet...because they didn't have any first aid if you did. Later we find out that other shooter are starting WITHOUT rocks in the box. So we went and asked the RM if this was the case....he in turn went and talked to the stage RO and asked him...the stage RO told the RM that there was no requirement for rock in the box and it was the shooters option if they wanted them or not. Thats not what we were told...clearly the course had changed from when we shot it and others had shot it. USPSA rules are clear when a course changes (either reshoot it or toss it). The RM was indecisive on how things should proceed....we kinda pushed for the chance to reshoot it.....and the RM said he didn't know what to do. He didn't offer us the chance to reshoot it...and he didn't suggest anything about tossing the stage. Rather than causing turmoil....our squad decided to drop the issue. plus, the match was run under the new rules (i thought i heard in all the stage descriptions). i do know the 2 poppers on stage 9 were maybe 7 yds away! also, i saw one guy nail the 33yd no-shoot on stage 8 three times, only to be dinged for two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 great match - awesome RO's - perfect range - and loved the weather =]I got to shoot with the friendliest people and under the nicest RO's who're just out there doing their jobs and having fun i am DEFINITELY coming back to this range (hopefully for another area 1??? =]) i was lucky enuf to see lee shoot for the first time...this guy is scary fast. watch out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 plus, the match was run under the new rules (i thought i heard in all the stage descriptions). Officially, the match was run under the old rules. At least, that's what all the ROs were supposed to tell you in the walk throughs, and... the new rules are not yet out and in effect, so the match *couldn't* be run under them. Having said that, I have heard a fair number of interesting reports about how rules were "interpreted" differently on different stages. This concerns me, and I'll be looking into it, to ensure that we do a better job of compliance and consistency next time. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 I'm glad they didn't toss out stage 8 since it was one stage that I shot decently ... and my box was full of rocks. yeah...we knew if we'd push the issue...that we'd become everyone favorite new target! It may have helped some in the end (expecially in my case since I tanked the stage)....but everyone else who shot it would be really upset if it was tossed....... the stage should have either been reshot or tossed...finding everyone who shot it with the "required" rocks would have been difficult at least. Having said that, I have heard a fair number of interesting reports about how rules were "interpreted" differently on different stages. ...one of the more interesting incidents was when an RO tried to assess 6 procedural penalties to a shooter in our squad who shot the first string of the freestyle string...strong hand and didn't understand that "freestyle" meant anyway the shooter wanted. After some strong convincing (i.e. the entire squad telling him!!!)...he finally retracted the 6 procedural penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 This concerns me, and I'll be looking into it, to ensure that we do a better job of compliance and consistency next time. Maybe if more of us had volunteered to RO it would have been more consistent. At the end of a 4 hour RO shift I can't tell the difference between a rule section number and the measurements to the playmate of the month. The RO's at this match shot 12 stages on Thursday then worked their stage for 3 full days! To make it worse the RO scores weren't counted in the competition because of some thing that happened last year when the RO's shot early and some ding-dong got all the RO scores thrown out (or so I hear.) So if the RO's made a couple of mistakes TFB. Call the RM that's what he's there for and if you're still peeved, arbitrate it. Everybody got through the match safely so the RO's fulfilled their primary mission. If we really want things to get better we can't put up with the crap that caused the RO's not to be able to compete in the first place and volunteer for a shift next time. Besides that ... I had a GREAT Time! Special thanks to WNPL for a fun match and it was nice meeting you Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 To make it worse the RO scores weren't counted in the competition because of some thing that happened last year when the RO's shot early and some ding-dong got all the RO scores thrown out (or so I hear.) Not exactly. The RO scores were not counted at this years match because of a number of factors: the RM was not sure that the stages the ROs shot would be exactly the same as when the registered shooters shot them (and, in fact, some stages *were* changed during the RO match), they were not sure that the ROs would get through all the stages, and they really kinda wanted to have the RO match be a separate thing. Thats different from the 2002 Area-1 match. In that case, the ROs shot the match the weekend before the "real" match, while the range was closed to anyone *but* the ROs. Since those scores were not shot during "the published dates of the match", and there was no way to ensure that the stages were exactly the same as the "paying customers", the rules *require* that they not be included in the official match results. I had talked about this with the MD before the match, and thought he understood, but he apparently told his ROs something different. When this was brought to his attention during the match, *he* decided to pull the RO scores out... but told the ROs I was "forcing" him to do it. Thats fine, but... I didn't create the situation, all I did was tell him what the rules say. The rules are clear, and made even more clear in the new rulebook. If the stages are identical and the ROs shoot during the "published dates of the match", theres no problem including their scores in the official results. In the case of the 2004 match, we discussed having the RO scores count in the match, but ultimately it was the match management's decision not to include them. Bruce (the ding dong) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Bruce (the ding dong) oopps ... sorry. That's what I get for talking about something I knew nothing about. I guess my biggest frustration is that the RO's (including you) worked so hard and it seems unappreciated now. I'll shut up now and go practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 This concerns me, and I'll be looking into it, to ensure that we do a better job of compliance and consistency next time. Maybe if more of us had volunteered to RO it would have been more consistent. At the end of a 4 hour RO shift I can't tell the difference between a rule section number and the measurements to the playmate of the month. The RO's at this match shot 12 stages on Thursday then worked their stage for 3 full days! To make it worse the RO scores weren't counted in the competition because of some thing that happened last year when the RO's shot early and some ding-dong got all the RO scores thrown out (or so I hear.) So if the RO's made a couple of mistakes TFB. Call the RM that's what he's there for and if you're still peeved, arbitrate it. Everybody got through the match safely so the RO's fulfilled their primary mission. If we really want things to get better we can't put up with the crap that caused the RO's not to be able to compete in the first place and volunteer for a shift next time. Besides that ... I had a GREAT Time! Special thanks to WNPL for a fun match and it was nice meeting you Bruce. i had no problems with any part of the match, except for the 3 day schedule...we were so far ahead, that match could easily been done in 2 days. the 2 1/2 hr break to vist the 3 vendors was a bit much. also i heard the stage with the sink was originally intended to have water in it. by the time we shot it, it was dry. heard that the morning squad on the 1st day found the water to be partially frozen (hahaha). can't imagine the arbitration that would have went on with that one (i.e. one's hands being 36 degrees vs the afternoon squads being quite a bit warmer...not to mention the safety issue). but anyway, the stage was changed and all shot it without water in the sink. i was just curious that some of the new rules were, in fact, implemented as part of the match...at an area level. overall, i had a great time. kudos to wnpl, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athena Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 It was a great match. Wasn't the hosing match that I expected (THANK GOD!!!)....It's great to see some starting position with guns in condition 3 (otherwise known as gun unloaded, magazine separated). Been a while since I did that. Congratulations and thanks to Dave Buell and everybody at WNPL for a great match, the hardworking and very friendly RO's. Also to Nate V. and all the stage designers. It was fun except for those darned ports on stage 11. But I liked stage 9 very, very much, though Go LIMCAT!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 regardless of my previous comments...I thought it was a very good match...very technically challenging from my perspective...lots of opportunites to screw up...plenty of no shoots scattered around the range (with easy opportunities to hit them). I learned alot at this match (which is what I was looking for). It showed weakness in my game that I can work on.... if it weren't for the fact that my gun was causing problems on the first day and my spectacular run on stage 8...my first stage of the match (causing a nice hole to dig out of)...the match would have been great. Coulda...woulda...shoulda.... you know the story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 General observation on ROs at this match: In my limited experience, this has been the largest range of RO ability I've seen in a single match. It ranged from excellent to clueless. I agree with that. Here are a few examples of cluelessness. On a gun unloaded on stable start the R.O comand was " face down range and go do your thing" Another fav was "if you are finished unload and show clear" <R.O looks in chamber> "put 'er away" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I didn't stick around for the results so I cant give any of that information. You got second B in open. Bill has your plaque. CONGRATULATIONS! now Im really kicking myself for those two misses. 40 points separated me and 1st B. hte other pisses is that i finished at 68% thats gonna kick out a good classifer score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 also i heard the stage with the sink was originally intended to have water in it. by the time we shot it, it was dry. heard that the morning squad on the 1st day found the water to be partially frozen (hahaha). THey said in the shooters meeting that the sink didnt hold water to begin with. If ther ewas water in there on friday moring that would have been interesting because it was definantly dry when we shot it. sunday. The start position we were told was "index fingers touching drain". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 It was a good match experience overall and my first time at that range, just hate shooting when it's cold (anything below 60* is freezing for me ) Had some "r.o. complications" on stage 8 too. The squad we followed never painted the steel when they were done on the stage (a pet peeve of mine) but what can you do? Met some really nice people there and hope to see you all again. Aloha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now