Marketing NRA AP

[bikerburgess]

As a shooter that shot my first match this past weekend, and had a great time, this is my $.02

Locally:

As a AP shooter if you shoot other sports talk it up with your squad mates, a few words from shooter to shooter at a match can have more impact than an announcement at a shooters meeting. (Chuck thanks for talking me into it)

Get the word out at your club (Chucks article appeared in our clubs news letter and several new shooters showed up for the next match)

Promote the use of .22's, if they don't have a holster for it or aren't comfortable drawing from one let them start low ready (not for official NRA scores, but most people are just shooting for fun or to see how they do against their buddy anyway).

Nationally:

An easy to navigate web site with a link to all the local clubs hosting matches. it needs to be easy for someone with a passing interest to find out about the sport and get to their first match, after that they will probably be hooked.

When I Google "Bianchi cup" I get the NRA Bianchi cup page but is doesn't say Action Pistol anywhere on it, the two need to be linked at all times. If I didn't all ready know I would have a hard time figuring out that if I want to shoot the same type of match I saw in a Biachi clip I need to look for a NRA Action pistol match.

Mike

Mike

[Toolguy]

It is called the Midway USA Bianchi Cup. How about Midway USA doing some marketing? They could put something in the catalog about it, maybe a page to explain things and some videos on their website, or a postcard type ad with each order, etc. They already have the network and distribution channels in place, they are constantly sending things to shooters who have never heard of the Cup, and it seems like it wouldn't cost much to do. Also, that would probably generate them some new revenue when more people get geared up to shoot a new game. Just my 2 cents.

[Mr Badger]

The cost and availability of equipment is the biggest hinderance to growth of this discipline. I suspect most clubs consist of mostly Master and High Master "open" shooters and a very few others scattered through the lower grades shooting an assortment of iron sighted guns wondering how to source an open gun and how to pay for it. It would be easier and more attractive for beginners/intermediates to enter this code if the open guns had been restricted to the same as used by IPSC. No barricade wings, no base pads and no mover base. No gunsmith needed, less cost. The gap between production and open guns would not be so large and the availability of new and second hand open guns would be much better. I don't think you can actually buy an off the shelf NRA open gun anywhere even if you are in the small percentage of shooters who could afford a new one.

I got that off my chest. Sorry its a reaction to not being able to buy a simple 2011 slide stop pin in this country.

[toothguy]

The cost and availability of equipment is the biggest hinderance to growth of this discipline. I suspect most clubs consist of mostly Master and High Master "open" shooters and a very few others scattered through the lower grades shooting an assortment of iron sighted guns wondering how to source an open gun and how to pay for it. It would be easier and more attractive for beginners/intermediates to enter this code if the open guns had been restricted to the same as used by IPSC. No barricade wings, no base pads and no mover base. No gunsmith needed, less cost. The gap between production and open guns would not be so large and the availability of new and second hand open guns would be much better. I don't think you can actually buy an off the shelf NRA open gun anywhere even if you are in the small percentage of shooters who could afford a new one.

I got that off my chest. Sorry its a reaction to not being able to buy a simple 2011 slide stop pin in this country.

I think due to the money being put towards new shooters and production, the match will balance out more. If I may suggest, If you are thinking of building an open gun consider an open revolver. A full build is about half the cost of an auto. If I were starting from scratch I would get a 6 inch 686, smooth out the trigger, and shoot production.

Edited November 19, 2012 by toothguy

[DWFAN]

We also have a guy in our club who bought a STI MatchMaster. He added a shroud, mover and dot and now has a Bianchi open gun.

The "Open" division you are describing is called Open Modified, red dot and comp, but no wings..etc.. NRA AP had or has that division currently in the rule book. Although, they do not accept that division for The Bianchi cup due to low participation.

[toothguy]

We also have a guy in our club who bought a STI MatchMaster. He added a shroud, mover and dot and now has a Bianchi open gun.

The "Open" division you are describing is called Open Modified, red dot and comp, but no wings..etc.. NRA AP had or has that division currently in the rule book. Although, they do not accept that division for The Bianchi cup due to low participation.

If you are talking about the one Fred built for his wife, it looks pretty good. He told me that he doesn't have much trouble with it and gets 1.5 inch groups at 50. He had someone weld up the C-more holes to match the shroud holes and had to mill the inside of the shroud to fit. You could get the shroud with no holes and save that step. I thought Fred's gun was a .38 super GM which would provide more real estate for the shroud, but I could be wrong.

I heard a few things about the demise of Open Modified. It was designed to attract IPSC shooters but the 2 lb trigger killed that, and it didn't matter any way because there was never a large participation. Even though I shoot open, It seems to me to be moving in the right direction. The numbers are up in large part to the emphasis on Production. For the match to survive you need to attract new shooters and try to keep the old shooters happy. It is so expensive to start with an open gun and much easier to start in Production with a gun you probably already own.

Now I am going to get myself into trouble. Production should be just that, the way the gun came from the factory. Not talking about tuning, carving grips or even changing sights but to change the barrel is changing the heart of the gun. Much like a Transvestite it's a misrepresentation of equipment.

Edited November 19, 2012 by toothguy

[DWFAN]

We also have a guy in our club who bought a STI MatchMaster. He added a shroud, mover and dot and now has a Bianchi open gun.

The "Open" division you are describing is called Open Modified, red dot and comp, but no wings..etc.. NRA AP had or has that division currently in the rule book. Although, they do not accept that division for The Bianchi cup due to low participation.

If you are talking about the one Fred built for his wife, it looks pretty good. He told me that he doesn't have much trouble with it and gets 1.5 inch groups at 50. He had someone weld up the C-more holes to match the shroud holes and had to mill the inside of the shroud to fit. You could get the shroud with no holes and save that step. I thought Fred's gun was a .38 super GM which would provide more real estate for the shroud, but I could be wrong.

I heard a few things about the demise of Open Modified. It was designed to attract IPSC shooters but the 2 lb trigger killed that, and it didn't matter any way because there was never a large participation. Even though I shoot open, It seems to me to be moving in the right direction. The numbers are up in large part to the emphasis on Production. For the match to survive you need to attract new shooters and try to keep the old shooters happy. It is so expensive to start with an open gun and much easier to start in Production with a gun you probably already own.

Now I am going to get myself into trouble. Production should be just that, the way the gun came from the factory. Not talking about tuning, carving grips or even changing sights but to change the barrel is changing the heart of the gun.

Yep, you're correct, STI Grand Master. I agree, get an undrilled shroud from Caspian, or special order from Gilmore and you'd be set. Even a cheaper Trubore could be made to work.

The functional grip safety also helped kill Open Modified from what I understand.

[toothguy]

Even cheaper still shoot a revolver. No shroud, grip safety or pesky magazines and springs to deal with.

[DWFAN]

I agree. 2 seasons on my open gun and I'm already dumping probably $500 more in it this winter.

[gm iprod]

It used to be called stock gun. But some participants murdered those rules as well. 2003 comes to mind. The last time a "STOCK" was used at a AP match was 1999 down here for the Worlds. I should know.

[toothguy]

It used to be called stock gun. But some participants murdered those rules as well. 2003 comes to mind. The last time a "STOCK" was used at a AP match was 1999 down here for the Worlds. I should know.

I think it loses credibility when politics get involved. It's impressive when someone performs well with a gun that's primarily designed for reliability. I find it a let down to discover that it has become a Metallic division in disguise of Production or Stock. If you want to be competitive can you follow the spirit of the classification?

Edited November 24, 2012 by toothguy

[PPGMD]

Now I am going to get myself into trouble. Production should be just that, the way the gun came from the factory. Not talking about tuning, carving grips or even changing sights but to change the barrel is changing the heart of the gun. Much like a Transvestite it's a misrepresentation of equipment.

There aren't too many production guns that can shoot well at 50 yards.

Anyways I think the production rules are fine, you can be fairly competitive with a $500 gun, and really competitive (assuming you do you part) for around $1,000. Also you can try the sport out with a USPSA Production, or IDPA SSP though obviously if you want to be serious you need a purpose built gun.

[toothguy]

Now I am going to get myself into trouble. Production should be just that, the way the gun came from the factory. Not talking about tuning, carving grips or even changing sights but to change the barrel is changing the heart of the gun. Much like a Transvestite it's a misrepresentation of equipment.

There aren't too many production guns that can shoot well at 50 yards.

Anyways I think the production rules are fine, you can be fairly competitive with a $500 gun, and really competitive (assuming you do you part) for around $1,000. Also you can try the sport out with a USPSA Production, or IDPA SSP though obviously if you want to be serious you need a purpose built gun.

"There aren't too many production guns that can shoot well at 50 yards". That's why they have there own classification, because they were not designed for that.

Edited November 25, 2012 by toothguy

[Action Pistolero]

I agree. 2 seasons on my open gun and I'm already dumping probably $500 more in it this winter.

This is what happens when the gun wasn't built correctly to start with. Been there. Done that. I had 4 grand in my first open auto. Not because of the gunsmith. I didn't know what I needed to start off.

In my opinion, Production is for shooters in 2 categories. New shooters and those that believe they can be competitive with one gun in numerous shooting sports.

[gm iprod]

My current open gun was built in 2005. Same barrel, slide and frame since then 110K plus rounds by my best estimate. I had to replace the guide rod fairly early on, my crap idea, and I have replaced the front bearing twice. First one was poorly built, second one wore out. Current one 35K rounds. Still holds sub 1" when shot properly.

New one on the way, similar design just less complicated.

[toothguy]

My current open gun was built in 2005. Same barrel, slide and frame since then 110K plus rounds by my best estimate. I had to replace the guide rod fairly early on, my crap idea, and I have replaced the front bearing twice. First one was poorly built, second one wore out. Current one 35K rounds. Still holds sub 1" when shot properly.

New one on the way, similar design just less complicated.

If it's ok to ask, who built your gun.

[gm iprod]

Took a while to back to this.

Built here in NZ by Alan McLean, now mostly retired. But still full of good ideas. STI Hicap Long Wide frame, Slide and Barrel. STI recoil master guide rod was a piece of shit once the gun run in, would not work on the one I wanted as the gun was too tight. Went back to Ed Brown one piece rod and 14lb recoil spring. Felt spongy using the STI rod once I got used to the small amount of recoil. Cycled relly quick and flat, but felt dead in the hands.

[toothguy]

Took a while to back to this.

Built here in NZ by Alan McLean, now mostly retired. But still full of good ideas. STI Hicap Long Wide frame, Slide and Barrel. STI recoil master guide rod was a piece of shit once the gun run in, would not work on the one I wanted as the gun was too tight. Went back to Ed Brown one piece rod and 14lb recoil spring. Felt spongy using the STI rod once I got used to the small amount of recoil. Cycled relly quick and flat, but felt dead in the hands.

Just curious to get you opinion, what do you think about using a stock Trubor, 9 or super, and fitting a shroud? Can't seem to find anyone that makes an extended base pad for the wide grip.

[gm iprod]

No reason why not. I like doing these on STI wide body because we need the thickness and the length in the frame.

Already set up for scope, so frame is snug, already comped. Can't complain too much about that.

Had to make our own base for the wide body. I will start a thread and post pics, or PM me and I will send good pictures of the monster.

[toothguy]

Thanks, there is a guy at our club that built a gun for his wife using a STI GM super. I remember a few years ago someone, maybe an Australian, was making some shrouds and base pads for the wide body STI's. I priced buying a Trubor and shroud and it doesn't seem like you would be saving much if any money building a gun yourself. Having seen and heard of all the problems, finding someone to build an accurate and reliable Bianchi auto appears to be a very difficult task.

Edited December 22, 2012 by toothguy

[gm iprod]

Firstly talk to Kevin Angstadt.

The front shroud is seperate from the scope mounts. Mounts attached directly to mover base. Wings form part of the shroud, shroud was hold on by 4 screws but I found two through the wings were sufficient, especially after breaking one of the front ones and no loss of accuracy. Comp is missing due to LOcktite letting go so it got its yearly clean. Bottom screw hold block into shroud to hold barrel bushing. Barrel comes out through front of shroud. Shroud, barrel, guide rod and slide all come off together. Block and bushing come out the front, barrel slides out front. Normally no need to remove comp.

Bushing is force fit into shroud, made from PTFE / Bronze alloy. Looks like plastic, machines like metal.

Bottom of mag well is std STI alluminium magwell with extra metal welded on and machine to correct angle, the anodized.

Edited December 22, 2012 by gm iprod

[DWFAN]

Thanks, there is a guy at our club that built a gun for his wife using a STI GM super. I remember a few years ago someone, maybe an Australian, was making some shrouds and base pads for the wide body STI's. I priced buying a Trubor and shroud and it doesn't seem like you would be saving much if any money building a gun yourself. Having seen and heard of all the problems, finding someone to build an accurate and reliable Bianchi auto appears to be a very difficult task.

He's going to do the same with a Trubore now also. Except he's planning on using an undrilled Caspian shroud so he doesnt have to weld and re-drill anything. I think the shroud may have to be opened up for the dustcover though.

Buy a box of parts and sent it to Kevins guy. Mine's there now getting Un-Ron Co'd.

You really considering Auto instead of revolver?

Edited December 22, 2012 by DWFAN

[gm iprod]

BTW mine is single stack under all the hicap grip. Already owned the magazines. I am with DW, send parts to Kevins gunplumber.

[toothguy]

Thanks for the info, right now I'm still dealing with shoulder issues. I sent in my cup entry, hopefully I will be able to shoot. I saw an old six million dollar man episode, I'm thinking that bionics might be the answer.

[gm iprod]

I have two dodgy shoulders. All that really matters is that I now have to drink using a smaller glass.