Nik Habicht Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 What I am saying is that, if you want to do well against other competitors, you better be ready to spend some dough. I've got a little experience in this arena -- 4 Nationals, 4 area matches, and a good 1/2 dozen other majors in Production -- and Cy is absolutely right: If you want to do well or improve, you better be ready to spend some dough, specifically: Sights -- What's a set of black Warren/Sevigny's run these days $70? 3.5 lb connector, and firing safety plunger, and a couple of springs -- that's another $70-75 Grip tape -- that'll be $30 for a three pack O.K., I've added $150 to the base price of the gun. In my opinion that's cheap, so why am I agreeing with Cy? Because you'll need to spend a lot -- on reloading equipment, brass, primers, powder, bullets, targets, stands, sticks, steel, mileage to and from practice, local match fees, food, hotels, major match fees..... It doesn't take a $3,000 gun; it doesn't take a $1500 gun, it can be done easily by a pair of ~ $500 glocks, setting them up identically -- so with a rig, that's less than $1500. Then buy lots of components, and get to practicing.... Because really, committing to the gun is the first step. Then don't change guns, and practice -- a lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Because really, committing to the gun is the first step. Then don't change guns, and practice -- a lot! AMEN to that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Edit to add: Ban magnets, and we'll find another way....Like this glued onto your belt and onto the basepad of the magazine.... Yes, of course there will always be gamers who try to circumvent the spirit of the law. I have no problem with doing this. On the contrary, pushing the "legality limits" without cheating is one of the things that fascinate me about this sport but preventing this sort of competitive advantage is a simple matter of using the correct wording in the Rulebook. How is a magnet a "competitive" advantage? It's not like only persons shooting certain guns can use them, everyone can (with the exception of maybe revo shooters). We are talking about a piece of gear that costs half of what a CR Speed mag pouch does....Newbs are gonna show up with the mag pouches that came with their gun, realize that yes, they do work, but are so much slower and harder to use than the CR's, and go out and buy 5 or 6 of the CR Speeds or Safariland pouches....You did it, I did it. Again, compared to the price of all of those, what's one magnet? The argument that it's a gear race doesn't hold water... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) What I am saying is that, if you want to do well against other competitors, you better be ready to spend some dough. I've got a little experience in this arena -- 4 Nationals, 4 area matches, and a good 1/2 dozen other majors in Production -- and Cy is absolutely right: If you want to do well or improve, you better be ready to spend some dough, specifically: Sights -- What's a set of black Warren/Sevigny's run these days $70? 3.5 lb connector, and firing safety plunger, and a couple of springs -- that's another $70-75 Grip tape -- that'll be $30 for a three pack O.K., I've added $150 to the base price of the gun. In my opinion that's cheap, so why am I agreeing with Cy? Because you'll need to spend a lot -- on reloading equipment, brass, primers, powder, bullets, targets, stands, sticks, steel, mileage to and from practice, local match fees, food, hotels, major match fees..... It doesn't take a $3,000 gun; it doesn't take a $1500 gun, it can be done easily by a pair of ~ $500 glocks, setting them up identically -- so with a rig, that's less than $1500. Then buy lots of components, and get to practicing.... Because really, committing to the gun is the first step. Then don't change guns, and practice -- a lot! Nik, and what bearing does all that have to do with a $20 magnet? You just said $1,500....$20 is 1/75th of $1,500.... $20 is the cost of one match, 1/3rd the cost of a CR Speed belt or DAA belt, 1/3rd the cost of a DOH. Do you think the people getting into this sport don't know it's expensive? BTW, last time I looked, most commercial ammo makes minor, so subtract the press, once you subtract the press, then the brass, powder, primer, bullets....If it weren't so, AAA wouldn't be in business, nor would DC ammo....Many people don't reload...Yes there is a cost involved with buying ammo, but for the cost of 100 rounds of WWB 9mm, you can buy a magnet....I'm telling you, the money sides of your arguments don't hold water... Edit to add: We ain't talking about sending newbs to the Nationals....By the time they get there, they already have everything they need or want... Edited January 13, 2012 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 How is a magnet a "competitive" advantage? Because by allowing it you are making it's use "mandatory" in order to have a leveled playing field. Notice that I wrote mandatory in quotation marks. What I am trying to imply is that, any time you have an unloaded start with magazines on a table that requires you to advance to another position before you can engage target, those folks who have a magnet holder on their belts will perform more efficiently (time wise) than those who do not have one; therefore having a competitive advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm telling you, the money sides of your arguments don't hold water... But it's not just a money issue. On the big scheme of things, $20 for a magnet is peanuts. The issue is that there will be some that have one and others that won't. There will be times where those who have them will surpass those who don't based solely on their equipment and irrespectively of their shooting ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 As a Production shooter, I am OK with having no magnets in Production. While at our USPSA Nationals, I saw where one of our Production World Shoot Team members was asking around to get a magnet to take to the IPSC World Shoot match that was immediately following our Nationals. The magnets have been around in IPSC for a while, and he felt/was told that they were, pretty much, needed equipment. They aren't popular in USPSA Production...yet. But, I do think they would become "needed equipment". We can nip this one in the bud. If they were allowed, I'd feel like I have to buy some. Then, the local match shooters would see me wearing them and they'd feel they'd have to buy some. I don't want to have to buy more gear to compete in Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yet all of you, citing that you don't want anymore gear in production, went out and bought DOH's, other mag holders, shoes, etc. , to play the game. That is hypocritical..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm telling you, the money sides of your arguments don't hold water... But it's not just a money issue. On the big scheme of things, $20 for a magnet is peanuts. The issue is that there will be some that have one and others that won't. There will be times where those who have them will surpass those who don't based solely on their equipment and irrespectively of their shooting ability. Cy, that's my point. Anyone who has been playing in production any length of time has gear that a newb doesn't, creating as you call it, a competitive advantage. If you are gonna ban magnets, then ban all mag holders and holsters, except the ones that came with your gun. That too will create an equipment race to get the gun with the best mag holders.and holsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 As a Production shooter, I am OK with having no magnets in Production. While at our USPSA Nationals, I saw where one of our Production World Shoot Team members was asking around to get a magnet to take to the IPSC World Shoot match that was immediately following our Nationals. The magnets have been around in IPSC for a while, and he felt/was told that they were, pretty much, needed equipment. They aren't popular in USPSA Production...yet. But, I do think they would become "needed equipment". We can nip this one in the bud. If they were allowed, I'd feel like I have to buy some. Then, the local match shooters would see me wearing them and they'd feel they'd have to buy some. I don't want to have to buy more gear to compete in Production. Flex,people have seen you wearing whatever mag holders you currently use and went out and bought some, same with your holster. Again, that argument doesn't hold water.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Let's take this a little further. Since some have mentioned Conceal Carry was some sort of guideline for Production then the holsters should be limited to only those that fit inside the pants line. Also an outer garment must be worn to conceal the weapon and mags. Yeah, ummm, that is already done. It's called IDPA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMV Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I believe it boils down to this: This is a game. Period. Of course I am going to try to get every competitive advantage I can get within the rules. Not within the spirit of the rules, WITHIN THE RULES. Because I want to win but I am not a cheater. As a result of this, I spend what i can afford to spend on the things which I believe will help me win. To me the limits on trigger pull and magnetic mag holders seem arbitrary and capricious...but that's just me. None of the arguements I have heard really make a lot of sense as to why these limits are necessary. Neither of them are gonna help me kick Flex's ass in production next time I shoot with him whether they are in force or not for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stony Lane Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 "I don't want to have to buy more gear to compete in Production." Ditto! Plus, I don't want potential new shooters scared off because of all the gear "required." Shoot Limited if you want all the race equipment. Wasn't Production supposed to be "entry level?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yet all of you, citing that you don't want anymore gear in production, went out and bought DOH's, other mag holders, shoes, etc. , to play the game. That is hypocritical..... No, it's not. It's rather insulting for you to say that, really. The mag holders I use in Production...are the same mag holders I've had since I started, and used in Limited. I use 3 Safariland singles, and Uncle Mikes double, and a single BladeTech. There is nothing new or fancy about them. I've managed to keep them cobbled together over the years. They work fine. Some of that stuff is a decade old, some of it is half that. (except for the belt, which somehow shrinks ) I have no problem competing with a $15 Uncle Mikes holster. After a decade, I just got some cheap cleats last year, finally. They didn't help me win/lose. I have wore sandals, and safety boots at matches...just because all the chicks dig them. We got some of that legacy gear in Production because: 1. It wasn't regulated at first...especially since we just copied IPSC to start, and they don't regulate it. 2. Folks actually shot the division with gear they already had. This would be new gear, and it would have to be bought. Heck, I could have used some magnets at a Section match last year. I tanked a stage with a "grab your mags" start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Flex,people have seen you wearing whatever mag holders you currently use and went out and bought some, same with your holster. Again, that argument doesn't hold water.... That is a bad guess on your part. Just bad. People tend to see my gear and struggle with the realization that time in the pro shop isn't going to really help their game as much as they'd like. I'm "Larry the cable guy" of shooting fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 How is a magnet a "competitive" advantage? Because by allowing it you are making it's use "mandatory" in order to have a leveled playing field. Notice that I wrote mandatory in quotation marks. What I am trying to imply is that, any time you have an unloaded start with magazines on a table that requires you to advance to another position before you can engage target, those folks who have a magnet holder on their belts will perform more efficiently (time wise) than those who do not have one; therefore having a competitive advantage. I've been shooting Production for most of the last decade. Magnet mag pouches have been around for the last two or three years at least. I don't own any. I have no current plans to buy one, let alone six. I've got more than half a decade's worth of experience drawing mags out of my Comp-tac beltfeed, and the two single pouches behind it. I'm not resetting that learning curve -- especially since I'm aware that mags on magnets can shift position.... I'll trust my practice.... .....and hope that my competition uses magnetic magpouches at some matches..... They're simply a non-issue in my opinion. Now, if someone else can't think that through, and goes "oh, shiny; new; must go buy," well I can't really help that..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 As a Production shooter, I am OK with having no magnets in Production. While at our USPSA Nationals, I saw where one of our Production World Shoot Team members was asking around to get a magnet to take to the IPSC World Shoot match that was immediately following our Nationals. The magnets have been around in IPSC for a while, and he felt/was told that they were, pretty much, needed equipment. They aren't popular in USPSA Production...yet. But, I do think they would become "needed equipment". We can nip this one in the bud. If they were allowed, I'd feel like I have to buy some. Then, the local match shooters would see me wearing them and they'd feel they'd have to buy some. I don't want to have to buy more gear to compete in Production. I couldn't disagree more...... What's next? We disallow the evolution of the Dropped and offset holster? The Comp-tac beltfeed? Race cut mag pouches? Those are gamer mods -- and someone might want to replace their Fobus or Uncle Mike's pouches, because they see you with better gear.... And now you have a gear race at the local level.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I voted that making them illegal is ok with me. I don't think "freestyle" is a valid arguement. Freestyle is execution given the equipment constraints available, not a justification for equipment rules. Otherwise, we should just drop all production rules, eg mag placement, 10-round limits, use of front pockets, etc. How much of an advantage would a magnet be in typical matches in the US, in production division? In Lim or Open, sure, where you typically put one mag in the gun and one in the pouch/magnet. In production, you usually need to stow at least 2, often 3 mags. Are people using that many magnets? And wouldn't they have to be behind the hip bone, per 5.2.4? Is there really an advantage in production? I've never seen a magnet used by a production shooter. I'm wondering if it's a non issue? I'd rather see empty-belt starts banned. Not a fan. Poor way to make a stage harder, IMO. -rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikegot38 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I like the magnets!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 ...And wouldn't they have to be behind the hip bone, per 5.2.4? ... Not only behind the hip bone, but within 2" of the inner side of the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 As a Production shooter, I am OK with having no magnets in Production. While at our USPSA Nationals, I saw where one of our Production World Shoot Team members was asking around to get a magnet to take to the IPSC World Shoot match that was immediately following our Nationals. The magnets have been around in IPSC for a while, and he felt/was told that they were, pretty much, needed equipment. They aren't popular in USPSA Production...yet. But, I do think they would become "needed equipment". We can nip this one in the bud. If they were allowed, I'd feel like I have to buy some. Then, the local match shooters would see me wearing them and they'd feel they'd have to buy some. I don't want to have to buy more gear to compete in Production. I couldn't disagree more...... What's next? We disallow the evolution of the Dropped and offset holster? The Comp-tac beltfeed? Race cut mag pouches? Those are gamer mods -- and someone might want to replace their Fobus or Uncle Mike's pouches, because they see you with better gear.... And now you have a gear race at the local level.... The "what's next" view point doesn't work for me. That ends up throwing the baby out with the bath water...and just letting everything go. Magnetic mag holder are not yet out the barn door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centermass Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 ...And wouldn't they have to be behind the hip bone, per 5.2.4? ... Not only behind the hip bone, but within 2" of the inner side of the belt. Non-issue as that is the same for ALL divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Yet all of you, citing that you don't want anymore gear in production, went out and bought DOH's, other mag holders, shoes, etc. , to play the game. That is hypocritical..... No, it's not. It's rather insulting for you to say that, really. The mag holders I use in Production...are the same mag holders I've had since I started, and used in Limited. I use 3 Safariland singles, and Uncle Mikes double, and a single BladeTech. There is nothing new or fancy about them. I've managed to keep them cobbled together over the years. They work fine. Some of that stuff is a decade old, some of it is half that. (except for the belt, which somehow shrinks ) I have no problem competing with a $15 Uncle Mikes holster. After a decade, I just got some cheap cleats last year, finally. They didn't help me win/lose. I have wore sandals, and safety boots at matches...just because all the chicks dig them. We got some of that legacy gear in Production because: 1. It wasn't regulated at first...especially since we just copied IPSC to start, and they don't regulate it. 2. Folks actually shot the division with gear they already had. This would be new gear, and it would have to be bought. Heck, I could have used some magnets at a Section match last year. I tanked a stage with a "grab your mags" start. My apologies, Flex. It was an assumption about your gear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Flex,people have seen you wearing whatever mag holders you currently use and went out and bought some, same with your holster. Again, that argument doesn't hold water.... That is a bad guess on your part. Just bad. People tend to see my gear and struggle with the realization that time in the pro shop isn't going to really help their game as much as they'd like. I'm "Larry the cable guy" of shooting fashion. Another assumption on my part (apologies), but I would bet you are a minority in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centermass Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) How does the use of magnetic magazine holders in ANY division comply with this: 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Edited January 13, 2012 by centermass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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