iron vs 1X

[J.Schmitt]

There have been to my estimate about 15 major matches held since the adoption of 1X optics in "limited", since late summer of 2010. I have read most of threads on the topic. What I would like to know is what was the breakdown of irons vs dots. I shot Blue Ridge, Midwest and Ozarks in 2011. None of which had the competator declare sighting system. Something new was tried. I, and I imagine others, would like to know if it brought an influx of shooters to the division? Was it worthwile? I know a few TO guys made the move to shoot with 1X and did very well. I can kinda figure that out by looking at the top 5 results. After that I am stumped. Has anyone gathered numbers?

I do not care to revisite all of the debated points of iron vs 1X in this topic.

Jay

[kellyn]

I can speak to the breakdown as to the winners.

Kurt Miller walked away with $5K from Hornady winning the 3 Gun Nation Tactical Iron point series. He shot irons (extended sight radius/skinny post on a JP rifle with 20 in barrel). Kurt won Rocky Mountain 3 Gun, Texas State Multigun, Fort Benning, USPSA Nationals, CMMG and Ozark 2010. He was 2nd at Superstition Mountain (after bending his front sight).

Next up was James Casonova who won FNHUSA and Ozark 2011. He was also 2nd at Blue Ridge, USPSA Nationals, Rocky Mtn. 3 Gun, and MGM. He shoots a Leupold Prismatic with DCD.

Then there is me, who won Superstition and Blue Ridge and was 2nd at FNHUSA also with a Prismatic and DCD.

Travis Gibson won MGM but I don't know the sighting system.

SO on the basis of that, I would say that irons pose no disadvantage to the Tactical Limited shooter (as long as his name is Kurt Miller!) winning at least 6 of the aforementioned 11 matches. Four were won with the Pris.

As to the entire breakdown of division, I have no idea. I do know that this division has increased participation at the local level in Phoenix.

[usp45ss]

I picked up limited late in the year with Leupold Prismatic DCD. A lot of guys also run the Eotech xps2-0 or 2-2. I ended up 2nd at Ozark (98% of James), 3rd at Multigun Nats (98% of Kurt), 2nd at FB3G, and won Arkansas Multigun with the Pris.

I think it is a good idea to keep the division going. I saw more guys showing up with the Aimpoint or Eotech that they already had at home. Anything that makes it easier for people to show up to a match and shoot is a good thing to me.

[Bryan 45]

West, was the allowance of 1x optic in Limited the main reason you started shooting the divison? Had you considered shooting Limited w/ irons before the 1x allowance?

[Nuke8401]

This will sound like a complaint but it is not meant to be.

I shot irons last year (only one big match AR15 PRO/AM in AM, not an issue with this match as there were no divisions, it would have been nice to see where I stood with other limited shooters however) and the main reason I switched to TO is because of the % scoring system used.

If I finish 2 of 4 iron shooters, ho hum.

If time plus is used and I finish 4 of 60 Limited and TO shooters combined well then I'm way more happy.

So for the most part I will be shooting TO except when I shoot a match where time plus is used and the targets are at least 4 MOA.

I was on the verge of buying a Prismatic but for the same reason as irons I just went TO.

I will always have my irons rifle with me just in case!

David E.

[Big Bore]

Travis used a prismatic at the Ironman.

[usp45ss]

West, was the allowance of 1x optic in Limited the main reason you started shooting the divison? Had you considered shooting Limited w/ irons before the 1x allowance?

Yes, it was the main reason. I thought about true irons but didn't. Truth is that I grew up shooting a scoped rifle of some sort. My first AR ever wore an Eotech. I know how to use irons in a pinch, but I've never had to learn to use them correctly or at least enough to be competitive with them.

Other reason was a little more specialized equipment for true irons. I just took the scope off a tac optics gun and put a Prismatic on it. I didn't need to change anything else.

[Lead-Head]

When 1x optics opened up the Used to be "irons division" something else that happened concurrently.. that was the $5,000 awarded to each division winner by 3GN. This seemed to pull in some aleady 1st class TO shooters into the TI division. It did the same thing for HM.

I do think allowing 1x got some new shooters interested in the divison, who found a place for the aimpoint or eotech they already owned. I met several of them this last season.

What will be interesting is the rules for next year. Will 3GN recognize each divison? Will they charge $500 a shooter to "join" the point series? How many in divisons like TI and HM would pay to play? Likely...not enough.

Will we see TI/Tac non-magnified die out. I don't think so, but we may see some of the top 5 TI guys from last year migrate back to TO if they $$$ and prizes go back to the less than inspiring level this division was used to years ago.

I have my opinions about the advantages of a sighting system such as a prismatic over irons, but have no illusuions that disallowing them would change my order of finish at any of the matches I attend.

[Big Bore]

When 1x optics opened up the Used to be "irons division" something else that happened concurrently.. that was the $5,000 awarded to each division winner by 3GN. This seemed to pull in some aleady 1st class TO shooters into the TI division. It did the same thing for HM.

I do think allowing 1x got some new shooters interested in the divison, who found a place for the aimpoint or eotech they already owned. I met several of them this last season.

What will be interesting is the rules for next year. Will 3GN recognize each divison? Will they charge $500 a shooter to "join" the point series? How many in divisons like TI and HM would pay to play? Likely...not enough.

Will we see TI/Tac non-magnified die out. I don't think so, but we may see some of the top 5 TI guys from last year migrate back to TO if they $$$ and prizes go back to the less than inspiring level this division was used to years ago.I have my opinions about the advantages of a sighting system such as a prismatic over irons, but have no illusuions that disallowing them would change my order of finish at any of the matches I attend.

I put together a TO rifle this winter and will probably shoot it at some matches and see how it goes.

Scott

[MarkCO]

If I finish 2 of 4 iron shooters, ho hum.

Depends on which 4 fishes are in that pond!

If you beat Kurt, James, Kelly, West, Scott, Kelley (Patrick) and there are others, that sir is no "ho hum". Look at what these guys do in other classes, namely TO when they are forced to shoot that division with minimal train up time. I might also say this, go look at some of those matches and take the raw scores of the TI winner and drop it into TS. In most cases, their scores are still top 5 (at least top 10) even though they were using 1x or irons. There are several overall stage wins in the match by these guys as well. Yep, smaller pond, but the fish are just as big.

Also, the respect these guys show each other is pretty amazing. Being in a smaller pond and knowing the actual three or four guys they are chasing (or are chasing them) brings about a dynamic that does not occur in in TS. In fact I might be wrong (I only shoot TS) but I think some of the appeal of the smaller divisions is this direct competition dynamic.

At our local matches, Limited is in 2nd place for number of participants behind TO. We are getting some LE and Mil with their Eotechs, Aimpoints and such. It appears to be an equal split between irons and 1x optics in that class. However, some of the newbies have 1x optics on the way since James stomps all the local competition with a Pris!

Want to really grow Limited? Make it a special category in TS and pay out cash to 5th place with irons or 1x in addition to the prize table and set the match up with all easy to see 4 MOA targets. Sorry, bad idea!

[Langenator]

Not a representative sample, but at our last local match, out of 12 shooters, there was 1 Tac-Iron, 2 Heavy-Iron, and the rest Tac-Optics. (Our local club has separate divisions for Heavy-Optic and Heavy-Iron).

I don't have any other results sheets to look at to see if anyone shot Tac-Limited at any previous matches.

As someone who's just getting started and learning the sport, I would say that the existence of a division like T-L, where a new shooter would feel less 'outgunned' equipment wise, would encourage more new shooters to play.

[J.Schmitt]

Some good points made about the cash incentive to move to TI. This will affect only a few people. Same goes for increasing the competion to the guy who is in the end the winner.

Did 1X bring bodies into the major matches in the last year and a half. I know that local matches are having showings of 1X.

Looking back to 2008 at DPMS Tri Gun. 36 shooters for TI shooting iron sights. You had Kurt M, Robby J, Bruce P, Ted P, and many others shooting TI. Was it because there was 4K to the winner of each division. Was it because of a deep prize table offered to all divisions.

If having a small group of upper level TO shooters move to, What is it called, Tac-Open, increases what has been spoken of as a lesser prize table, takes that and balances it then I think that is good.

I guess I would like to know who is shooting what. Many of you don;t know me or what I shoot. It is obviouse now however. But If I were at a match with Lead Head and I did;t know him how would I know what I shot against.

I really like what MarkCO has listed and crossed out. Some sort of crazy Handicapp.

How about declaring you equipment on the registration. JP Rifle irons sights, DPMS 3G1 with Prismatic.

Jay

[Lead-Head]

I would like to know what equipment others are shooting. If the reason for adding 1x was to draw in more shooters, it seems there should be some measurement how many TI shooters are using a 1x optic. This would determine if the rule change was successful. I assume it was, since there seem to be more signining up to shoot TI, but wihtout accounting for their equipment, how can anyone know the ratio of 1x optics shooters to standard irons in the divison?

This, however, is not going to happen. And in my opinion probably shouldn't. It will only perpetuate the argument related to the advantage/disadvantage of one sighting system over another within the divison.

If I had to guess, I'd say over 75% of TI shooters now use a 1x optic at major matches. Just a guess from talking to other TI shooters and reading posts.

[TXMXRACER]

After 3-4 years of shooting Tac optics I plan on moving to limited this year. The 1x optic is the main reason. I may rethink that decision after the first match but for now I think it will be a fun change of pace.

`

shane

[Nuke8401]

MarkCO,

Needless to say I agree with you on this.

Depends on which 4 fishes are in that pond!

If you beat Kurt, James, Kelly, West, Scott, Kelley (Patrick) and there are others, that sir is no "ho hum". Look at what these guys do in other classes, namely TO when they are forced to shoot that division with minimal train up time.

My experience has been at smaller/local matches where the number of iron shooters is 1-6 and where the raw times are not always avalable.

If I new ahead of time that raw scores were not going to be avalable and I were shooting irons at a small match, I would rather shoot irons in TO.

David E.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Nuke8401

[J.Schmitt]

I would like to know what equipment others are shooting. If the reason for adding 1x was to draw in more shooters, it seems there should be some measurement how many TI shooters are using a 1x optic. This would determine if the rule change was successful. I assume it was, since there seem to be more signining up to shoot TI, but wihtout accounting for their equipment, how can anyone know the ratio of 1x optics shooters to standard irons in the divison?

This, however, is not going to happen. And in my opinion probably shouldn't. It will only perpetuate the argument related to the advantage/disadvantage of one sighting system over another within the divison.

If I had to guess, I'd say over 75% of TI shooters now use a 1x optic at major matches. Just a guess from talking to other TI shooters and reading posts.

I agree that from the other topics on this issue that "adding more shooters" was the goal. That being directly related to moving 1X to TI and providing them a new home. I think 75 percent sounds rather high, but then again I have no way of knowing other that what people seem to have as a general "guess".

I am under no illusion that 1X is probably here to stay. I was relatively sure of that right from the start. However it was discussed at length about how it was going to be tried. So I state it again, It was tried, what were the results. Knowing that a couple skilled shooters placed high with 1x tells me nothing. Same as when when an iron sight guy shoots irons in TO and places high. It only reaffirms to me the high level of skill.

Jay

[Langenator]

OK, now I'm a bit confused...are we talking about putting 1x optics in their own division (Tac-Limited), or including them in Tac-Irons?

And are you adding shooters (especially new ones), or simply causing shooters to move from one division to another?

Another variable that may effect things - prevalence of longer range (>300m) targets. 1x optics are awesome for close range hoser targets, but are less f an advantage as the range extends. Beyond 300m, I think I'd rather have a good set of irons that lets me adjust my elevation than an Aimpoint or EOTech. (And I do love my EOTech for blasting close range targets quickly.)

[kellyn]

If I finish 2 of 4 iron shooters, ho hum.

Depends on which 4 fishes are in that pond!

If you beat Kurt, James, Kelly, West, Scott, Kelley (Patrick) and there are others, that sir is no "ho hum". Look at what these guys do in other classes, namely TO when they are forced to shoot that division with minimal train up time. I might also say this, go look at some of those matches and take the raw scores of the TI winner and drop it into TS. In most cases, their scores are still top 5 (at least top 10) even though they were using 1x or irons. There are several overall stage wins in the match by these guys as well. Yep, smaller pond, but the fish are just as big.

Also, the respect these guys show each other is pretty amazing. Being in a smaller pond and knowing the actual three or four guys they are chasing (or are chasing them) brings about a dynamic that does not occur in in TS. In fact I might be wrong (I only shoot TS) but I think some of the appeal of the smaller divisions is this direct competition dynamic.

At our local matches, Limited is in 2nd place for number of participants behind TO. We are getting some LE and Mil with their Eotechs, Aimpoints and such. It appears to be an equal split between irons and 1x optics in that class. However, some of the newbies have 1x optics on the way since James stomps all the local competition with a Pris!

Want to really grow Limited? Make it a special category in TS and pay out cash to 5th place with irons or 1x in addition to the prize table and set the match up with all easy to see 4 MOA targets. Sorry, bad idea!

I don't know what you're talking about, I hate all those guys, especially James.

There is a positive dynamic in the TI pond. Is it better than TO, Open or HM? I don't know. But it is funny, in TI it seemed like Kurt, James and I were all rooting for each other in the 3GN point series. While I would have obviously liked to have won, I'm kinda glad a guy shooting irons sights did actually win.

From a sponsor perspective, it does open the door for Eotech, Aimpoint, Vortex and Leupold etc. to field shooters with their 1X optics which are otherwise not as competitive in TO.

From a personal persepctive, 3GN did pull me toward TI once 1Xs were allowed as I could compete with a Leupold Prismatic otherwise as a Team Leupold guy, I would have stayed in TO. 3GN will obviously drive the boat on a lot of shooters' choices depending on what they do. There are obviously pros and cons to that.

[Nuke8401]

This thread (MarkCO, KellyN and others posts) has made me reexamine my decision to switch to TO from Irons.

I like the challenge of shooting irons and to be frank I like beating optics guys when I can.

The one rifle match and one 3 gun match I shot at the end of 2011 with an optic made me think I was much better with an optic.

In hind sight that may not be the case, time to get back to practicing with irons.

David E.

[1911vm]

Dave you will not ne the only one. I am in exactly same boat. I just cannot make up my mind on JP globe or a post front sight..

Vlad

Edited January 14, 2012 by 1911vm

[Nuke8401]

Vlad,

I looked at the JP/Lyman, if using the lyman inserts the post widths seem to be limited to .067 - .102 wide.

.067 is wider than I have been using based on recommendations here to use .030 - .050 width posts based on the targets we shoot so the post does not cover the target. An alternative would be to sight in at 6 and just set the target on the post. I know there is one top shooter using/that used the lyman globe. The only time I wanted a globe was shooting in bright sunlight and had a glare issue on my front sight. I was not up to par on using a sight blackener at the time.

David

[Stlhead]

Shaver inserts offer more variety especially for those that prefer a thinner front sight.

[J.Schmitt]

the shavers drop to about a .02 or so. A couple are so thin they play tricks on the eyes.

[Chuck Anderson]

Another thing to think about. 1x optics, at least from the perspective of USPSA had less to do with participation at major matches than the local level. Yeah it's nice to have enough people to recognize the division at the Nationals. But my goal in putting it in was to add shooters at the local level. Those couple guys who went out and bought ARs and added EoTechs or red dots. Let them come in with something competitive and then get hooked.

[Alaskapopo]

Another thing to think about. 1x optics, at least from the perspective of USPSA had less to do with participation at major matches than the local level. Yeah it's nice to have enough people to recognize the division at the Nationals. But my goal in putting it in was to add shooters at the local level. Those couple guys who went out and bought ARs and added EoTechs or red dots. Let them come in with something competitive and then get hooked.

It was a great idea and I am glad you pushed it through.

Pat