Why do we load Titegroup and 124gr bullets hot?

[Flexmoney]

So I did my first 10 rounds today. I was getting used to the seating height with the lee classic (hand) loader. I loaded them all with 4.2 grains of TG ranging from 1.143" to 1.157". This is a safe OAL for 4.2 gr of powder, correct?

You have it backwards.

First find the proper OAL for your bullet, gun and mags. Then, figure out which powder and what amount will be safe and deliver the performance you are wanting.

Set your OAL so that it runs in your guns magazines and feeds well into the chamber. ...And, most importantly, isn't too short to cause pressure issues...nor too LONG, allowing the bullet to touch the rifling when chambered (also increasing pressure).

Start with book loads.

Your OAL is well beyond standard book loads.

What gun are you shooting?

What reloading manual(s) are you using?

[motman]

So I did my first 10 rounds today. I was getting used to the seating height with the lee classic (hand) loader. I loaded them all with 4.2 grains of TG ranging from 1.143" to 1.157". This is a safe OAL for 4.2 gr of powder, correct?

You have it backwards.

First find the proper OAL for your bullet, gun and mags. Then, figure out which powder and what amount will be safe and deliver the performance you are wanting.

Set your OAL so that it runs in your guns magazines and feeds well into the chamber. ...And, most importantly, isn't too short to cause pressure issues...nor too LONG, allowing the bullet to touch the rifling when chambered (also increasing pressure).

Start with book loads.

Your OAL is well beyond standard book loads.

What gun are you shooting?

What reloading manual(s) are you using?

Ahh, I see. You are right. Looks like I'm going to be disposing of these then...

I see it says to go with 1.142".

[ihatepickles]

Ahh, I see. You are right. Looks like I'm going to be disposing of these then...

I see it says to go with 1.142".

Since you have a variety of over-all-lengths (OAL) already loaded up, disassemble your pistol and take the barrel out. Drop the rounds into the barrel, with the intent of seeing how long you can load your ammo before it hits the rifling. The round should drop fully in and be able to rotate freely in the chamber before you tip the barrel up to make sure the round slides out easily too.

Figure out what your max length with this ammo and then use the same ammo in your magazines to see if these long rounds will fit into your magazine.

Normally I'd do all this with dummy rounds, but you can safely do this with loaded rounds too. This measurement will vary based on different bullet shapes and weights. For instance you may find you can load 115gr bullets 1.150" while only being able to load 147gr bullets 1.125" (or whatever your particular limits are).

As Flex said, pick a safe length and then use a reloading manual to locate a safe starting charge. Bump the charges up to search for accuracy and velocity. A chronograph is really needed, otherwise you really have no idea where you are on the safety aspect.

But yes, you're right to not fire those rounds. Perhaps keep them labeled and put away until after you've worked up a safe load. Then review your safe load numbers and compare with the numbers of this mystery batch. At worst, get a bullet puller and recover the bullets and powder. The cases can be reused too without removing the live primers, just remove the decapping pin from your resizing die. Without the decapping pin, the resizing die will safely reshape those cases for reuse.

Steve

[Flexmoney]

Ahh, I see. You are right. Looks like I'm going to be disposing of these then...

Just set those aside, in a well labeled peanut butter jar or something. (Note all aspects of the load...powder, primers, brass, OAL, powder charge and date, etc.)

Many here load beyond book OAL, for a variety of reasons. How do you know if you can...? Answers like "it depends" and "experience" come to mind.

Then, recall that I asked a few questions that you might address...?

(Oh...putting on my forum Admin. hat...please don't delete content. We all learn here by sharing experiences. thanks.)

[wirecounter]

I have spent a lot of time perusing through the 9mm Reloading section and it seems that most folks who are using 124gr FMJ & JHP bullets with Titegroup are loading their cases with 4.0gr to 4.2gr of powder. I have tried this load out of my G34 and I am getting around 140PF to nearly 150PF.

So why do so many people that use this load like to shoot it so hot? Wouldn't 3.6gr or so (achieving 130PF) be enough? Is it because by going this high you are getting better accuracy or is it something else?

Why is 4.0 to 4.2 considered hot? Recommended load range according to Hodgdon Reloading Data Center for 125 gr FMJ for Titegroup is 4.1 to 4.4 gr.

Unless you are thinking of plated or lead bullets which would be 3.6 to 4.0 gr.

[Cy Soto]

Why is 4.0 to 4.2 considered hot? Recommended load range according to Hodgdon Reloading Data Center for 125 gr FMJ for Titegroup is 4.1 to 4.4 gr.

Unless you are thinking of plated or lead bullets which would be 3.6 to 4.0 gr.

'Cause in this game all you need is to make a power factor of 125 to make minor. Additional PF adds to the recoil of the pistol therefore increasing your split times.

[Flexmoney]

'Cause in this game all you need is to make a power factor of 125 to make minor. Additional PF adds to the recoil of the pistol therefore increasing your split times.

That is a common belief. And, likely not as true as it would seem.

I've run my fastest splits while shooting Major (173pf) in my Glock35...set up identically as my Glock34. (I'm not saying that one is faster...just that it really doesn't matter as much as many make it seem.)

I certainly don't believe that there are differences in my split times between running 126pf and running 136pf. Both are soft shooting. For anybody that does finds a measurable difference...if it were me...I'd make it a top priority to improve my interaction with the gun so that difference goes away.

[lugnut]

Yeah.. most of the improvements we all seek don't require fancy equipment or crazy splits... just some good use of what we have upstairs!

[gm iprod]

All powders are temperature sensitive to some degree, no pun intended.

But TG is less so than others.

I can load TG in New Zealand in Winter (MAY 12C), fly to Missouri (MAY 30+C) and use the same load and get within 20fps on all loads. Different batch of brass, primers, bullets and powder.

I used to load my match ammo at home and fly with it, there was never a difference in how it worked at home or at the Cup.

I have loaded here in 40+C temperatures, had the ammo in storage and gone away with it 6 months later head to the colder part of the country and be within 2 or 4 pf all the time.

The deal is to know what your powder does. If you use XYZ brand and T2000 burnrate and it goes hot in the cold, then know what it will do, adjust as required and ensure that you do as many do and keep 5pf or more up the sleeve.

[1SOW]

wirecounter, Load data gives the "minimum oal" and the pressures "they" encountered during testing at that oal.

If you load shorter than published, you don't have a guide for how much pressure will 'increase'.

If you load longer than published, pressures will drop; so that may require more powder to reach the same published pressures/bullet speed.

Stay in the "safe oal range", start low and work up. As said above, the safe oal range includes "what your gun" will accept.

In addition to guns functioning better at higher PFs, the powder usually burns more efficiently at higher pressures/PFs.

It's typical for lighter loads to burn dirtier/sooty and chrono ES and SD to grow. Titegroup is no exception.

Edited December 15, 2011 by 1SOW

[wirecounter]

wirecounter, Load data gives the "minimum oal" and the pressures "they" encountered during testing at that oal.

If you load shorter than published, you don't have a guide for how much pressure will 'increase'.

If you load longer than published, pressures will drop; so that may require more powder to reach the same published pressures/bullet speed.

Stay in the "safe oal range", start low and work up. As said above, the safe oal range includes "what your gun" will accept.

In addition to guns functioning better at higher PFs, the powder usually burns more efficiently at higher pressures/PFs.

It's typical for lighter loads to burn dirtier/sooty and chrono ES and SD to grow. Titegroup is no exception.

Mahalo for the clarification. I was wondering about the short OAL listed in the load data compared with factory ammo and other OALs I have seen in these forums.

So I assume that a chrony would be essential if I plan to deviate from the published load information.

[Skydiver]

Even if you don't deviate from the load data, a chronograph would still be needed to verify that you are getting your expected PF out of your gun. The velocity they list is with their test gun. Unless you have exactly that same gun you could be above or below the published data.

[wirecounter]

Even if you don't deviate from the load data, a chronograph would still be needed to verify that you are getting your expected PF out of your gun. The velocity they list is with their test gun. Unless you have exactly that same gun you could be above or below the published data.

Mahalo again!

[1SOW]

So I assume that a chrony would be essential if I plan to deviate from the published load information

ALL of us have worked on loads without a chrono, where load data is all you've got to stay safe.

Getting a chrono can give surprising results from what you "thought" you had loaded. I had to break down over over 200 rds that were too light when I got mine.

They can help you tune the load to your gun and shooting preferences.

[ammowaster]

It has been a while since I loaded for production but I was at 4.3-4.4 grains of Titegroup with a MG124CMJ in my 226. It just always ran a little slow. Buddy uses 4.1-4.2 in his SP01 and makes it easy

[JAFO]

I'm using 4.5gr of Titegroup, Federal #100 primers, mixed brass, and MG 124gr JHPs @ ~1.14" COAL, and it gives me ~135PF from my 226. I feel that's a safe cushion above 125 and I've never had to worry about dropping a popper.

[gordonm1]

Another reason may be the Sierra manual listed 4.2 grains tightgroup as an accuracy load If my memory is correct.

By coincidence it shoots good in my 226 loaded as long as my mags allow.

[Spanners]

I've used 4.2 up to 'not telling'

I find Titegroup in general dirty and snappy regardless of the load.

Have been using a stout load of Universal for the last 5k rounds and will stick to it till my big tubb is used up then will try some International as its around 20% less powder and seems to shoot as good/better from other peoples ammo I've tried

[40S&W]

Chrono'ed TG loads this past Wednesday 3-7-12 and here is what I got.

Berry 124gr. plated

4.2gr. TG

Federal 100 Primers

Mixed Brass

1.142 OAL

Temp 60 Deg.F

Gun:

Open 2011

Barrel: Kart 5" Bushing

T-2 Alum. Comp

Slide: Bare Weight 10.5 oz.

Recoil Spring 7#

Five Shot Strings:

String 1: Avg. Vel. 1152, Avg. PF 142.9

String 2: Avg. Vel. 1145, Avg. PF 142

Berry 115gr. plated

4.1gr. TG

Federal 100 Primers

Mixed Brass

1.142 OAL

Temp 62 Deg.F

Ten Shot String:

String 1: Avg. Vel. 1128, Avg. PF 129.74

Edited March 10, 2012 by 40S&W

[hkguy]

Some of this data is interesting. Out of my P30L using 3.85 grs of TG, mixed brass, CCI 500 primers, Berrys 124 RNDS 1.115 COL i was getting an average of 132 PF. I also got an average of 127PF out of a USPc using the same load.

[contactcole]

I tried TG and 124 grain bullets at 130 pf. The recoil was nice but ejection wasn't 100%.

Getting the pf to 135-140 made it run perfect.

This was with a box stock glock. No springs, no weighted magwell, etc, etc.

This. And, OAL does matter. If memory serves, TG @ 3.7gr @ 1.135" would barely cycle my Glock 26, though I could get 3.4gr to dribble out of a Glock 17. I go with 4.0-4.1gr.

[Pyryman]

Just in case if someone googled this topic searcing Titegroup and using cast lead bullets. I have tried using TG with my 125gr cast lead bullets in my HK USP. Tried about 5000rnds loaded with Titegroup with no great success. Accuracy was just fine, all went boom when trigger was squeesed but - lead fouling in barrel was way too much (if 15mins barrel brushing is too much). If you're thinking using Titegroup with cast lead in polygonal rifled barrel... Don't. It just burns too hot. For plated and FMJs it is an excellent choise. For cast lead... No.

After switching to VV N320 no problems regarding barrel lead fouling. Just wrote for those who are finding this topic googleing.

[PiratePast40]

Seem to be getting lower chrono numbers than others. From what others have posted, I would have thought that I was getting really hot with this load:

X-Treme 124g HP

4.2 g Titegroup

1.150 OAL

CCI 500 primers

Mixed range brass

Mild crimp - need to look really hard to see any mark at all.

M&P Pro / 5" barrel

Temp 43 F, humidity 98%, overcast w/showers, 2-300 ft MSL

1025-1038 ft/min (127-129 PF), with chrono 10' from end of barrel.

This load is very accurate. Getting cloverleafs at 20' (through the chrono), and 2-3" groups at 45'.

[Tul9033]

Have you tried over more than 1 chrono? That does seem a bit low. I am @ 134pf with a MG 124gr JHP and 4.0 TG 1.10 OAL. What Chrono are you using?

Seem to be getting lower chrono numbers than others. From what others have posted, I would have thought that I was getting really hot with this load:

X-Treme 124g HP

4.2 g Titegroup

1.150 OAL

CCI 500 primers

Mixed range brass

Mild crimp - need to look really hard to see any mark at all.

M&P Pro / 5" barrel

Temp 43 F, humidity 98%, overcast w/showers, 2-300 ft MSL

1025-1038 ft/min (127-129 PF), with chrono 10' from end of barrel.

This load is very accurate. Getting cloverleafs at 20' (through the chrono), and 2-3" groups at 45'.

[rowdyb]

I run 3.8 of Titegroup under a 124gr Xtreme round nose. On my chrono that is 1080fps for around 133pf. I never ever sweat chrono.

I have only tested Titegroup to see how it is effected by cold. I would store my ammo in the freezer overnight at 29F. Then it would go in a cooler with ice to the range, 30 min drive, and be shot. Then I would shoot rounds from the same batch that were ambient temperature. No difference beyond normal variance. I have never tested for heat.

For me, there seems to be something around the 3.6-3.7 range with TG and 124gr plated bullets. 3.6 almost never makes pf and 3.7 does like 70% of the time. But go to 3.8 and it does every time without fail.....

1.130 oal before you ask, and out of a SP01 Shadow.