michael_aos Posted June 1, 2004 Author Share Posted June 1, 2004 The better quality stock. You don't want the VLS it is a laminate and will have some POI shift with different weather. OK. Not a HUGE concern for me, but I'm OK with dropping the VLS from the list. Check around those prices seem a little high. Also depending on your State tax rate sometimes it is well worth it to buy out of state and pay 20-25 bucks on the transfer. Might be worth looking into. I do like my local store (they know me by name) though. The best advice I can give you is if you're serious about winning or think you might be BUY THE BEST UP FRONT. I see a lot of guys buy cheap and regret it. They spend 3 times as much in the end compared to buying right the first time and end up upgrading 2-3 times before they are happy. They are the guys that are always having gun problems because they keep screwing around with new gear and learning new equipment. Buy it right and if you find out you like it you are 3 steps ahead of the game, if you find out it isn't for you you can sell top shelf gear with out taking a beating. I have no delusions of winning. We have some darned good shooters here in Colorado and even the most-expensive equipment out there isn't going to put me in the winners circle. I just want something "appropriate" to start out with. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I love the Remington LTR. I have one in .308. I can't see why this wouldn't be a good bolt gun for manual rifle matches. Lighter, as or more accurate than the 26" and prettier IMO. That fluted barrel is cool. I need to shoot mine more. It has been sitting for almost a year since I got my custom Rem. I hate neglecting my guns. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I have an old 700 heavy barrel 308 with the Mc Millan stock (which is basically a PSS). The only thing I had done to it was a trigger job. The rifle shoots under 1/2 MOA as-is, so there's nothing really to "fix" except to put a top quality scope and a GOOD (read: not cheap aluminum) scope mount and rings on it. My gun reportedly had what was a "Select" barrel, meaning that it grouped better than average at the factory. Don't ask me how you go about ordering one, but it might be worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 I love the Remington LTR. I have one in .308. I can't see why this wouldn't be a good bolt gun for manual rifle matches. Lighter, as or more accurate than the 26" and prettier IMO. That fluted barrel is cool. TXAG I've read a lot about .308 really "falling off" with distance (compared to the .260 Remington). "Drops like a rock" I think is the way they put it. I really like the LTR too but I figure the longer barrel will help mitigate some of that. If the LTR really is a viable option, please speak up. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 The better quality stock. You don't want the VLS it is a laminate and will have some POI shift with different weather. I'm OK with taking the VLS off the "maybe" list. I thought "all-weather durability" was a feature of the LS? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Ideally I would like an LTR in 260 or 7mm08. Not hard to do for me. New barrel and I would be good to go. I already have a 7mm08 and a 6mm. Think I will keep the 308 as is. How would the 6mm Rem. be for manual rifle? TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 The LTR will lose some velocity. The MOR matches are generally 600 yards and in so the It drops like a rock is BS. The .260 has a slight advantage in drop and wind when you stretch them out there, BUT the .260 has had some trouble with steel when it gets out to 800+. The .308 is the most common used sniper round in the world and has won damn near every type of match going. The big advantage of the .260 is that it is the smallest caliber that will still make major. Muzzle blast with a 20" is more than with a 24 or 26" barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 The MOR matches are generally 600 yards and in so the It drops like a rock is BS. The big advantage of the .260 is that it is the smallest caliber that will still make major. Muzzle blast with a 20" is more than with a 24 or 26" barrel. The longest lane where I shoot is 425yds. How big a deal is 7.5lbs -vs- 9lbs (with regard to recoil / shootability)? What about the LTR with a muzzle-break? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Do USPSA rules allow unlimited capacity in Open MOR guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 Recoil shouldn't be an issue. The LTR will work if you aren't going over 600. Phil MOR is 5 round capacity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 Recoil shouldn't be an issue. The LTR will work if you aren't going over 600.Phil MOR is 5 round capacity OK -- just so I understand this... The longest lane where I shoot is 425yds. I don't know if they "simulate" longer distances...? I guess that wouldn't really make any difference anyway, right? I'm really drawn to the LTR -- the specs just make it seem like it would "fit" me better. I'm buying this exclusively for MOR. Is there any reason NOT to go with the LTR? I hate to put myself at a disadvantage right off the bat. Is the "regular" 700P a better choice for MOR? I don't want to buy an Acura MDX for off-roading when I should be buying a Land Rover. Sure the Acura would work, but the Rover is really a better choice. Another analogy -- my Ford F250 is a poor choice for crawling around on narrow mountain "Jeep" trails. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 I'd say the only reason is price, but haven't seen anything for the LTR. If you're going to stay with ostensibly a 'stock' rifle, and not shoot anything beyond 425, then I tend to lean back to either a PSS or stock ADL. The reason for the latter is that since none of the rifles that we're discussing have detachable magazines, everything comes down to barrel and stock. This is (in my opinion) the big plus for the PSS vs. a stock ADL. Especially if you're going to upgrade from here (which you will). After a trigger job and bolt work, the first thing to be removed is probably going to be your stock and replaced with an AICS stock system to solve your mag problem. Next will be the barrel. So, again, it goes back to what's your time table. The PSS is good as if you decide to stick with MOR, you can EASILY sell it and buy either a one-off rifle or even better a T2k or AI-AWP. If you decide to bail, again it's very sellable. If you go with a stock ADL, and stick with this, it becomes a project like everything else in this sport and you build up from there. Again, if you decide to bail, there are more than a few people that will be happy to take a used 700 action (that's what it becomes) off your hands for a fair price. My advice: Buy a PSS, Badger Ordnance everything, have a good smith go through your bolt and trigger, buy a good piece of glass, ballistic software and a Kestrel and call 'er done. BTW, as we're under 600 yards, no need to get silly in ammo preparation. Just buy Black Hills or Federal, and/or load "good" ammo at home. By ammo preparation I mean weighing brass, etc. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 There is absolutely no reason on this earth why a PSS in 308 can't do everthing you want/need to do at 425 yards and less. What USC.... said about ammo too. No need to get fancy to get good results in 308. Also, I have had absolutely excellent results using Nosler's 168 BTHP match bullet in lieu of the the Sierra Matchkings. The Nosler's are substantialy less expensive and every bit as accurate. They don't have the same POI, so you can't switch back and forth, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 My advice: Buy a PSS, Badger Ordnance everything, have a good smith go through your bolt and trigger, buy a good piece of glass, ballistic software and a Kestrel and call 'er done. Cool. That's the same general conclusion I was coming too. OK, I know I don't know squat about any of this, but I'm _really_ drawn to the LTR. Dare I call it "sexy"? I haven't priced one, but I expect it's maybe $50 more than a 700P. Unless some says it's a "bad idea" or "you'll regret it" -- I'm strongly leaning toward the LTR. Getting close here folks. Just a couple more nudges in the right direction and I'll have me a new toy... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 When you decide LTR or no LTR, let me know what the difference is between it and a PSS (and really anything for that matter). Is it 'cause it's "TACTICAL"? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 When you decide LTR or no LTR, let me know what the difference is between it and a PSS (and really anything for that matter). Is it 'cause it's "TACTICAL"? Rich The PSS designation has been dropped by Remington. They have two "P" models. 700P - 26" bbl, 9lbs 700P LTR - 20" fluted bbl, 7.5lbs Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 The "PSS" has a 26" barrel and a bulkier and longer stock than the LTR. It is heavier as well(given). My LTR handles great. I bought it because I wanted a rifle that was short and quick handling in a box blind while deer hunting. I wasn't sure what I wanted till I walked into a local store and saw it. Just by looking I new it was one of two calibers(308 or 223). I asked if it was 308(praying that it was) and was told yes. I walked out 20 minutes later with my new deer rifle. I have groups that measure under 1/4" @ 100yds. I love it. It does prefer 150 over anything heavier, but I load every round that goes through it. Is the shorter barrel really that bad with a 308? I can see if it was a 300 Ultra, but the 308 is so short, looks to me like it wouldn't hurt it that much on velocity. You will love the rifle(LTR). Whether it is suitable for the MOR sport is another story. And... if you don't like it, you will have no problems getting rid of it. I have several friends waiting in line with cash to buy mine if I feel the need to rid myself of it. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 2, 2004 Author Share Posted June 2, 2004 Checked out an LTR in .223 today (they didn't have a .308 in stock). Much slimmer stock, and lighter of course. Wow. I'm impressed -- as I expected I would be. Feels great / handy. I much prefer the way it feels (in the store) to the regular 700P. Seems like it would be tons of fun. But -- this whole thing is about MOR. I don't care how "cool" or "sexy" it appears in the store -- if it's not the "right" choice for MOR, then I won't get it. Same price as the 700P ($799). Help. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 2, 2004 Share Posted June 2, 2004 A friend, who's an accomplished rifle shooter and action shooter, and I had this discussion about 100 yard groups. He quickly fired back, well, let me know the next time there is a 100 yard group shootin' match in USPSA and I'll show up. Until then, let me know how your rifle does at 600+. That's not a shot at anyone, but does say a lot. Benchresting is great, and I love it, but the big eye opener for me in 3-gun was seeing what my AR (sub-minute) would do at 200 and 300 yards. As a result, 100 yards is for plinkin' and I try to work almost exclusively at 200. Not having shot an MOR match, but imagine many parallels can be drawn, I would say having probably a bit more of a stable platform and one where maybe not a 26" barrel, but maybe a 24" barrel would be better so the velocities can develop, would be more preferred. That being said, I'd lean to the 700P and have a gunsmith cut/re-crown to around 22.5 - 23" and then thread it for a JP-BC comp. Just a thought. The nice part is that you have it down to two rifles! Just for giggles, I'm thinking about 300 Win. Mag. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 If it isn't accurate at 100 it won't be at 600 either. My best group at 600 has been 2.5". I don't get to shoot that range much unless it is at prairie dogs. They are tough to hit @ 600. The LTR with a 23" or so barrel would be nice IMO. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 Mike, The extra weight will add some stability for quick follow up shots. The LTR was designed for the PD market where they needed a light short precision gun for 100 and in. I'd go with the 26" have 2" cut off and a brake put on. Remington is famous for messed up crowns. If you're half competent at following directions the Remington trigger is easy to adjust. Sooner or later you'll want to stretch it out and the LTR is going to run out around 600 the 24-26 will go 1000. This is a match rifle not a hunting gun. Texasag, There are loads that won't shoot worth crap until 200+ yards. The bullet hasn't stabilized at 100 with some loads. 168's generally shoot better at 100 yards than 175's but the 175 are better for 600+. Rich, Check out the 300 WSM over the 300 Win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 3, 2004 Author Share Posted June 3, 2004 The LTR with a 23" or so barrel would be nice IMO. TXAG Remember the "plan" here is to rebarrel in .260 or upgrade to a different rifle entirely (eventually). I could have a 23" .260 barrel stuck on an LTR, right? Or am I limited in options to rebarrel the LTR? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 You can rebarrel the LTR. It is the same action just different stock and barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted June 3, 2004 Share Posted June 3, 2004 OK, this sort of fits in the thread as far as light vs. heavy 20" vs. 24"+ ... Is USPSA MOR strictly a bipod-prone game? Are the other competitions? Do they ever force you to shoot offhand or use something else for support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael_aos Posted June 3, 2004 Author Share Posted June 3, 2004 From the last CO State IPSC invite: Plan on 6 inch plates out to 250 yards and 8x10 plates out to 425 yards. A minimum of 18 rounds will be required. I suspect this is "typical" of what I'll encounter at the range where I play. So -- with that in mind -- would the 20" LTR be OK? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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