FTDR: can it be issued for ignoring cover?

[Tarkeg]

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

Because that's in the rulebook.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

The USPSA rulebook doesn't require membership to shoot those matches.

[GOF]

RM,

Someone should have discussed your holster with you before you shot. The NFS after the fact was not a good call in this IDPA SO's opinion. It should have been addressed up front. But, at least they allowed you to shoot, and get your trigger time for your entry fee...instead of just DQing you... even though you were using what they felt (and were probably correct on) was not IDPA legal equipment.

Now a question...(just a survey) are you a IDPA member? How many IDPA matches have you shot?

[Chills1994]

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

IDPA doesn't get a mission count i.e. USPSA so why should that matter.

As far as the shooter in question, issue penalties, tell him why he got them. Don't sneak them on the scorecard and be a pussy, talk to the guy. If he still remains an ass, don't invite him back.

I remember not too long ago, i shot an IDPA match at a club about 45 miles away. I earned a NFS, (not for score) seems my safariland 586 pouch holster with safariland belt didn't pass someones muster, they never even spoke to me about it. The closest shooter was 20 seconds behind me, that might have had something to do with it as well.

RM

Did you know that holster/belt combination was IDPA ILlegal before you went to that match?

Are you sure you don't mean a Safariland 568....FIVE SIXTY-EIGHT holster instead?

I am looking at Safariland's website here:

http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=568

and I don't see why the holster would be illegal.

And I tried looking for a 586 holster, and it can't be found on their website.

If you ran it with both a competition inner and outer belt system, then yeah, that is verboten, and somebody should have been upfront with you about it, and you could have just gone with the inner belt and used the 568 holster as a regular ol' paddle holster.

If they gave you an "NFS" after the fact, well.... I'll leave my opinions out of it, but if they didn't tell you anything at the match and "snuck" the NFS in there when they published the results, in my opinion, they should have mailed you your match entry fee back.

Did you contact the MD after the results were publsihed?

[John Z Sr]

Just wondering where you were coming from. You don't sound like an IDPA member.

I shot IDPA exclusively for several years. I still enjoy the sport and participate in a few matches every year but I cannot in good conscious partake of the "us v. them" mentality which, sadly, is more prevalently observed in the IDPA discipline. Still, I honestly believe that it is a wonderful game and anytime a new shooter asks me to get him/her initiated in the shooting sports, I always choose to baptize them in the IDPA waters simply because it is more "new-shooter-friendly". Eventually, they all end up in the dark side...

We do the same thing, it is easier for the new shooter to shoot iDPA, but after they get hit with all the 1/1/2/1/1/ and slicing pies and looking for cover points to reload behind, and near to far, they go to a USPSA match and generally have more fun, just like at ZSA. I shoot and enjoy all 3 games, but remember folks, they are games and games have rules, follow the rules of the game you are playing, be SAFE and have FUN

[Bear23]

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

Because that's in the rulebook.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

The USPSA rulebook doesn't require membership to shoot those matches.

Blah blah blah, rulebook....The question is why?

why turn shooters away from a match just because they aren't idpa members?

[Bear23]

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

IDPA doesn't get a mission count i.e. USPSA so why should that matter.

As far as the shooter in question, issue penalties, tell him why he got them. Don't sneak them on the scorecard and be a pussy, talk to the guy. If he still remains an ass, don't invite him back.

I remember not too long ago, i shot an IDPA match at a club about 45 miles away. I earned a NFS, (not for score) seems my safariland 586 pouch holster with safariland belt didn't pass someones muster, they never even spoke to me about it. The closest shooter was 20 seconds behind me, that might have had something to do with it as well.

RM

Did you know that holster/belt combination was IDPA ILlegal before you went to that match?

Are you sure you don't mean a Safariland 568....FIVE SIXTY-EIGHT holster instead?

I am looking at Safariland's website here:

http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=568

and I don't see why the holster would be illegal.

And I tried looking for a 586 holster, and it can't be found on their website.

If you ran it with both a competition inner and outer belt system, then yeah, that is verboten, and somebody should have been upfront with you about it, and you could have just gone with the inner belt and used the 568 holster as a regular ol' paddle holster.

If they gave you an "NFS" after the fact, well.... I'll leave my opinions out of it, but if they didn't tell you anything at the match and "snuck" the NFS in there when they published the results, in my opinion, they should have mailed you your match entry fee back.

Did you contact the MD after the results were publsihed?

Yes i contacted him. Never got a response, I now shoot once in a while with the club as they have new staff running the show. But yes NFS after the fact and no one spoke up. It is a 586 holster, I use it all the time for USPSA single stack and IDPA CDP. But that is water under the bridge. My point is to show some of the mentality we deal with with idpa and uspsa clubs.

[waktasz]

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

Because that's in the rulebook.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

The USPSA rulebook doesn't require membership to shoot those matches.

Blah blah blah, rulebook....The question is why?

why turn shooters away from a match just because they aren't idpa members?

USPSA gets money from clubs no matter if the shooters are members or not. IDPA doesn't get money sent to them from the clubs just for putting on a match. They get money from paying members. I don't like the rule either necessarily but thems the ropes. I'm a member of both orgs.

[Bear23]

Waktasz,

I run our USPSA and Steel club here in New Mexico and have since 2004. I know how USPSA operates and makes money from non USPSA shooters via the mission count. IDPA has no such monitoring system, nor has the infrastructure to do so, so why make it a requirement? The same logic would force me to join Quail Unlimited just because i wanted to shoot skeet.

but back to the FTDR,

Just give the guys their penalties, explain to them the rules, if they chose to ignore, they may shoot but not for score. I think all of this can be handled at a club level.

[waktasz]

My point was that USPSA doesn't care as much if you don't join because they get paid regardless. If no one ever joined IDPA, and just shot their local matches as non-members, IDPA would die.

[Tarkeg]

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

Because that's in the rulebook.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

The USPSA rulebook doesn't require membership to shoot those matches.

Blah blah blah, rulebook....The question is why?

why turn shooters away from a match just because they aren't idpa members?

I see maturity isn't your strong point. IDPA and USPSA don't run on pixie dust. They both need funds from shooters to survive, they just go about it in different ways.

If you don't want to join IDPA, great. Then don't shoot it.

[freeidaho]

Blah blah blah, rulebook....The question is why?

why turn shooters away from a match just because they aren't idpa members?

Bare,

The causality is this:

1) Someone at your club signed a contract with IDPA HQ that says that said club will follow IDPA rules to the letter. That is actually the wording in the contract.

2) That signed contract and the associated fee allow your club to run IDPA matches and use the IDPA rulebook, logos, etc.

3) The rulebook has a rule requiring everyone except newbies must be a member to shoot IDPA.

3) Hence, your club must require membership. There is no confusion on the wording.

I know, I know, the what does it hurt question keeps coming up from those in denial about the facts above.

The "what does it hurt" defense for not being an IDPA member or a club not requiring IDPA membership reminds me of an incident in my youth.

My brother, me and a cousin snuck into an afternoon movie one summers day. We all three knew it was wrong, but when caught, I being the oldest thought we could talk ourselves out of it. I told the theatre manager, "What does it hurt. The movie is running anyway, and the seats were vacant. We even spent money at the consession stand. So see, in the long run, it helped the theatre."

The theatre owner and the Police that were called, did not accept that explanation no matter how cleverly it was worded. When the Police Officer brought us home, my father did not accept that explanation either. It took most of the rest of the summer to work through the chores that were assigned to make it a learning experience.

The "what does it hurt" defense doesn't work in IDPA either. My excuse is that I was 11 years old at the time.

Just a thought from a sometimes mis-spent youth.

kr

[Floyd D. Barber]

Cy,

"Half" IDPA matches degrade the sport considerably.

The SO's now have to treat competitors differently. Let some use illegal gear, but not let others. Ding some for not using cover, but not others. Let some do speed reloads, but not others. It really is difficult to keep track of exactly which set of rules to use for a particular shooter when you're running 120 shooters over the course of a match.Eventually the SO's wear down and get weak/inconsistent/gunshy at enforcing IDPA rules. Then you don't have an IDPA match.

Ask me how I know.

Koski

Sums it up for me.

[Steve Koski]

Page 62 of the SO training materials:

Penalties - Conduct

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

Examples: (Non-inclusive list)

4. Continuous disregard of cover calls after the first procedural for cover in a single stage.

[Bear23]

I am a member of USPSA and IDPA. I have been since 2003 and 2004. I am quite mature actually, I tend to like good answers like Ken's and not the standard bullshit because its in the rulebook. Rules like laws are made for a reason, and sometimes those reasons change and the rulebook must change along.

Why do you need to be an IDPA member just to shoot an IDPA match.

Because that's in the rulebook.

I have many new shooters who shoot our USPSA matches, They can either join USPSA or not, i don't turn them away?

The USPSA rulebook doesn't require membership to shoot those matches.

Blah blah blah, rulebook....The question is why?

why turn shooters away from a match just because they aren't idpa members?

I see maturity isn't your strong point. IDPA and USPSA don't run on pixie dust. They both need funds from shooters to survive, they just go about it in different ways.

If you don't want to join IDPA, great. Then don't shoot it.

[kevin c]

I am both a USPSA and IDPA member. Both disciplines/sports are run at my home club, though USPSA has by far the larger participation. I joined IDPA years ago with the deliberate intent to bridge the, at that time, very large and hostile gap that existed between the two organizations, but I actually do enjoy shooting both.

I occasionally got dinged for not following the rules, but that was not deliberate, it was just not remembering the differences. Happens less now, but I'm not error free.

Hostility is something that I'd like to see go away between the two sports. Respect is something I'd like to see grow. To that end, I don't think anybody should ignore/mock the rules of the game they're participating in. Any USPSA shooter at my club that did so in an IDPA match would get dressed down be me, personally, as a USPSA shooter and member of the match committee that oversees all action shooting at my range. The converse would happen too.

I guess my club is lucky that folks generally adhere to the rules of the match they're shooting. We don't have any outlaw shooters except raw beginners, who get cut some slack the first time around, and we have regular action shooting practice where you can shoot a stage any way you want, so long as you're safe.

Edited December 16, 2011 by kevin c