RO Stage Manipulations

[Gary Johnson]

Approving the competitor's position at the start of a COF is exclusively within the RO's purview. He is the one responsible for maintaining competitive equity. What the RO should not do is read more into the start position than is defined in the briefing. If you believe that is happening, take it up with the CRO/RM before attempting the COF.

As to the particulars of seated starts, I look at it this way: If you're using the seat as a shooting platform then let the competitor decide how we wants to sit. If you're not going to require shooting while seated, don't start that way. What part of DVC is tested by getting out of a chair?

I don't have issues with seat direction because I don't allow seats with backs or arms/sides. I've seen too many dropped guns and snagged magazines to consider that safe. My favorite is a piece of tree trunk, preferably the heaviest one the setup crew is capable of moving. Failing that I'll opt for half a lumber yard's worth of 4x4s bundled together.

I split this off from another thread to explore further.

Nik Spoke:

As the RO, I get to approve the position the chair. Simply won't start you, if you do anything too crazy -- other than say reasonable motion to accommodate your particular body type/size.....

And yes, ideally this would be nailed down during design/construction. Chairs however, especially when in vicinity to tables, should not be nailed down, to be able to adjust to the various sizes of competitors.....

Doesn't mean you can rotate it.....

Herein lies something that drives me a little up the wall. I do not believe it's the RO's position to approve positions. If the start position adheres to the letter of the WSB - you don't have a choice, I'm in the start position. You can demand it be in the same general direction and notate that as part of the stage, but I don't like that.

What specific purpose does stopping someone from twisting a chair sideways are you trying to stop from occurring? As long as they don't step on the chair and try to start perched in a praying mantis position that would be unsafe - what is the point to forcing the chair to face any direction?

Not asking to fight with you - I really want to try and understand this, because 1.1.5 says freestyle, the start position is defined. My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it. This stuff where the RO stands there and says, no, we're not starting you like that - the chair must face downrange. At which point I look at the WSB and ask where it says that, I get told by the RO, "I said that" and I ask to be unloaded and call the RM over.

I've seen far too much of this stuff lately, and I want your opinion and discussion on it.

[Jim Norman]

If I am repeating some of the above, please forgive me. I don't have time to read each repost and comment.

Chair Starts, Jim's Thoughts

First we need to build a USPSA (IPSC) Chair. It shall be constructed of wood and or plastic decking and be so built as to be splinter free. It shall withstand a static load of 400 pounds (I have seen some fairly large people at some matches. I don't want the chair to break.) There will be NO Arms on the chair to minimize the chances that a competitor's equipment will become dislodged or that the competitor will wind up carrying the chair on his belt.

As to the start position;

Seated on chair, back against the back of chair, feet flat on ground in front of and between the the legs, facing directly downrange, hands on knees.

Or seated on chair behind table.

The first is specific and you must comply with it. The second allows you to turn the chair sideways, sit with your feet at an angle to launch you out, your hands just about anywhere but touching your gun. The shooter can basically do as he pleases here.

UNLESS you add one clause: Seated in chair in position as demonstrated by the RO/CRO (This should ONLY be used with dedicated staff)

The less specific you are, the more variations you will see, likely 80% of them will be slower than just sitting down on the chair. Let them learn, some will, some won't.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[Gary Johnson]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

[motosapiens]

The problem is the entire stage, that includes the start position. I'm being challenged how to most efficiently to comply with the start position as required by the WSB. If I, as a shooter, find a way to help me out in the start position and still comply to the letter of the WSB, I should be able to use that - and doing so should be encouraged.

Feel free to disregard comments from the noob, but since not everyone is a lawyer, why not comply with the spirit of the WSB, instead of trying to find technicalities that let a clever lawyer get some kind of advantage?

[ima45dv8]

The problem is the entire stage, that includes the start position. I'm being challenged how to most efficiently to comply with the start position as required by the WSB. If I, as a shooter, find a way to help me out in the start position and still comply to the letter of the WSB, I should be able to use that - and doing so should be encouraged.

Feel free to disregard comments from the noob, but since not everyone is a lawyer, why not comply with the spirit of the WSB, instead of trying to find technicalities that let a clever lawyer get some kind of advantage?

'Cause that's what we do. There's no spirit or intention here. It's a problem to be solved with the highest score possible.

Creativity should be encouraged.

(And your comments are as valid as anyone else's)

[ima45dv8]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

If it's not nailed down or identified for a pre-set position, it's "...other loose material" as identified in 4.5.1.1 and can be moved.

[Gary Johnson]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

If it's not nailed down or identified for a pre-set position, it's "...other loose material" as identified in 4.5.1.1 and can be moved.

Nope, 4.5.1.1 applies to the range surface and is limited to 'achieving level and stable footing'.

[ima45dv8]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

If it's not nailed down or identified for a pre-set position, it's "...other loose material" as identified in 4.5.1.1 and can be moved.

Nope, 4.5.1.1 applies to the range surface and is limited to 'achieving level and stable footing'.

Of course, Gary. I know that. That's why I didn't post the entire rule.

But didn't it sound just like the sort of rationalizations that often come up during Make Ready?

[Gary Johnson]

If it's not nailed down or identified for a pre-set position, it's "...other loose material" as identified in 4.5.1.1 and can be moved.

Nope, 4.5.1.1 applies to the range surface and is limited to 'achieving level and stable footing'.

Of course, Gary. I know that. That's why I didn't post the entire rule.

But didn't it sound just like the sort of rationalizations that often come up during Make Ready?

Can't argue with that!

[Nik Habicht]

I split this off from another thread to explore further.

Nik Spoke:

As the RO, I get to approve the position the chair. Simply won't start you, if you do anything too crazy -- other than say reasonable motion to accommodate your particular body type/size.....

And yes, ideally this would be nailed down during design/construction. Chairs however, especially when in vicinity to tables, should not be nailed down, to be able to adjust to the various sizes of competitors.....

Doesn't mean you can rotate it.....

Herein lies something that drives me a little up the wall. I do not believe it's the RO's position to approve positions. If the start position adheres to the letter of the WSB - you don't have a choice, I'm in the start position. You can demand it be in the same general direction and notate that as part of the stage, but I don't like that.

What specific purpose does stopping someone from twisting a chair sideways are you trying to stop from occurring? As long as they don't step on the chair and try to start perched in a praying mantis position that would be unsafe - what is the point to forcing the chair to face any direction?

Not asking to fight with you - I really want to try and understand this, because 1.1.5 says freestyle, the start position is defined. My impression is if you don't want the chair moved according to how the shooter wants it - you best define it. This stuff where the RO stands there and says, no, we're not starting you like that - the chair must face downrange. At which point I look at the WSB and ask where it says that, I get told by the RO, "I said that" and I ask to be unloaded and call the RM over.

I've seen far too much of this stuff lately, and I want your opinion and discussion on it.

Keep in mind that I posted that in response to a suggestion that if the match staff doesn't want competitors to move a chair, they should nail it down. There are problems with that approach -- both for smaller and for larger than average shooters. That was the point I was attempting to address -- not to impose my will on the competitors.....

We ran a stage at the Mid-Atlantic Sectional that called for the shooter to start "Facing Uprange." While that is defined in the rulebook, the stage CRO asked if I could either provide the reference or copy and paste the info into the WSB -- so that he would have a handy and consistent answer when questioned.

Generally I'm fine with folks gaming a start position to a point. If the start position said "Sitting on chair" I'd probably define that as the seat of the chair (the way they're usually sat on), and not perched atop the arm, backrest, or with the chair flipped over, on one of the legs.....

I'd also call the RM with my concerns, and either get the start position tightened up in the WSB, or purposely defined as loosely as possible, letting folks do their own thing...

One of my favorite starts is "standing, anywhere in freefire zone, hands in any legal position."

[Nik Habicht]

I think if a chair is involved its easiest to add in "back touching back of chair". That keeps people from standing on it or sitting side saddle, it kinda forces the shooter in the chair seated properly. To me adding that little bit is kinda like stipulating shoulders and hips square to wall. If you are going to stipulate a start position then say exactly how you want the shooter to start in the wsb, if of doesn't say you can do something I don't think it is up to the RO to say no you can't. As a shooter if you feel you should be allowed to do something and the RO says no you owe it to yourself to go up the chain of command.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

Yep -- that would clarify it nicely.....

The RO does have some duty to preserve safety and competitive equity, and needs to ensure that his stage will hold up for the duration of the match. There are some legit considerations that might lead to restrictions. The trick is not to apply them unnecessarily or capriciously.....

Because I don't like it has never been a good reason for me.....

[Nik Habicht]

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

Yes, it would. Most matches solve this problem (if they want the shooter facing some way other than the targets) by nailing the chair down in some fashion so that it cannot be reoriented.

Dave,

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

See:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

The chair is a prop.....

[Nik Habicht]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

If it's not nailed down or identified for a pre-set position, it's "...other loose material" as identified in 4.5.1.1 and can be moved.

Ummmm, hard to need level footing for a seated start......

4.5.1.1 Exception - a competitor is allowed to move stone, sand or other loose material at the starting position for the purposes of achieving level and stable footing.

Somehow I don't think a chair ever qualifies as loose material.....

[ima45dv8]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

If it's not nailed down or identified for a pre-set position, it's "...other loose material" as identified in 4.5.1.1 and can be moved.

Ummmm, hard to need level footing for a seated start......

4.5.1.1 Exception - a competitor is allowed to move stone, sand or other loose material at the starting position for the purposes of achieving level and stable footing.

Somehow I don't think a chair ever qualifies as loose material.....

I wish I had thought of that.

Oh, wait. I did.

[EkuJustice]

most cleaver one I saw was the gun was on a table. Back of chair touching table, hands on knees. did not say back much be touching back of chair simply stated touching back of chair. Intent was to go around chair grab gun and shoot. Straddling the chair ac slater style satisifed all parts of the start position

[Skydiver]

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

Yes, it would. Most matches solve this problem (if they want the shooter facing some way other than the targets) by nailing the chair down in some fashion so that it cannot be reoriented.

Dave,

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

See:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

The chair is a prop.....

Let me make sure I understood got the application of the RO's discretion correctly:

So in the case the competitor who just moves the chair back to give themselves more working room, the I may give a procedural, but it's recommended that I do not.

In the case the competitor who flips the chair around to give themselves more working room, the I may give a procedural, and it's recommended that I do. (Additionally, I should instruct the shooter to set the chair the correct direction before I start him.)

Personally, I think that if the WSB didn't stipulate the chair position, and the chair wasn't nailed down or marked, the chair should be a prop that the shooter is allowed to manipulate just like a door, port, etc.

[Nik Habicht]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

If it's not nailed down or identified for a pre-set position, it's "...other loose material" as identified in 4.5.1.1 and can be moved.

Ummmm, hard to need level footing for a seated start......

4.5.1.1 Exception - a competitor is allowed to move stone, sand or other loose material at the starting position for the purposes of achieving level and stable footing.

Somehow I don't think a chair ever qualifies as loose material.....

I wish I had thought of that.

Oh, wait. I did.

When I come in from a long day of working, I tend to run through the thread in linear fashion posting replies as I go...... :devil:

[ima45dv8]

When I come in from a long day of working, I tend to run through the thread in linear fashion posting replies as I go...... :devil:

I know.

[Nik Habicht]

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

Yes, it would. Most matches solve this problem (if they want the shooter facing some way other than the targets) by nailing the chair down in some fashion so that it cannot be reoriented.

Dave,

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

See:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

The chair is a prop.....

Let me make sure I understood got the application of the RO's discretion correctly:

So in the case the competitor who just moves the chair back to give themselves more working room, the I may give a procedural, but it's recommended that I do not.

In the case the competitor who flips the chair around to give themselves more working room, the I may give a procedural, and it's recommended that I do. (Additionally, I should instruct the shooter to set the chair the correct direction before I start him.)

Personally, I think that if the WSB didn't stipulate the chair position, and the chair wasn't nailed down or marked, the chair should be a prop that the shooter is allowed to manipulate just like a door, port, etc.

So, the shooter can spin the wall containing the door, to put the handle on the appropriate side?

No, I'm not suggesting that you whack the shooter with a procedural for turning the chair 180 degrees. I'm suggesting he's not allowed to manipulate the prop to that extent -- and you shouldn't start him unless he's in a satisfactory position that you deem complies with the WSB......

Clearly it's possible that a five foot tall shooter might want the chair in a different position -- in relation to a table, wall, or other object -- than a shooter who's 6'6".....

Can you not see the difference between making an allowance for a competitor's build, or for safety, and someone turning the stage upside down? Really?

[aztecdriver]

If a chair, as a prop, is free to move, then I should be free to move it.

4.5.1 disagrees.

I'm a little curious about the application of this rule. 4.5.1 states that a competitor can not interfere with a prop - at anytime. If a movable chair can't be moved prior to the start signal, it should apply that it would not be allowed to be dislodged after the start signal. Jumping out of a folding chair could cause it to fly backwards - should then not a procedural penalty be applied? -- I know -- the discretion clause comes into play. I understand your approach to the chair issue, Gary.

Suffice it to say, if the CRO intends the chair to be in a specific way, it should be somehow made to be marked that way, or made like Gary has indicated in the other posts.

My question isn't if it should be legal to do so - we have already determined that ROs can determine this - and it's not an argument against whether it can be done - but I want to know why an RO would want to so determine this so rigidly for competitors.

You asked the question

What part of DVC is tested by getting out of a chair?

I could say Celeritas, speed. Consider for a second I've had a previous calf tear in my left leg and positioning the chair in a specific way allows me to utilize my right leg more effectively on my movement. I'm not disabled - I just know my right leg is more effective and my first movement needs the most strength. I'm solving the competitive problem the best way that I can - for me. It may be different than anyone else. The next question is - does allowing these positionings allow competitive inequity? I'd like to see a responses to that question?

Another example is a simple COF with a barricade and targets set to the left and right. The start position is hands on marks in the center of the barricade. The RO determines ahead of time that all competitors will be started standing in the center of the barricade. Instead of allowing the competitor to set up with hands touching the marks and the body either left or right according to what side the shooter is trying to get to. Obviously there are advantages to having to take half a step to a position versus a one and half step. Why would us as ROs want to guarantee all shooters start in the middle without any kind of problem solving on the start?

And Nik, I was simply using your topic as an example - I didn't mean to call you out on it - my apologies if it appeared that way - thank you for seed of thought.

[piper]

I've done it with, seated in chair, ( Buttocks on plastic), explained enough, Knees under table ( the part of the leg that bends between the ankle and the crotch) hands on knee ( already defined )any part of hand / any part of Knee, it really does not give you an advantage, Table ( flat Surface in front of shooter that would hold a Beer.)Table legs and chair legs , Fixed position , THE SAME for Everybody.

Go for it.

Twist , do whatever you want,

= Start position.

[Skydiver]

"Seated in chair, hands on knees," would allow you to move the chair facing any direction you want? Most stages I've seen have a picture of the chair and it's position.

Yes, it would. Most matches solve this problem (if they want the shooter facing some way other than the targets) by nailing the chair down in some fashion so that it cannot be reoriented.

Dave,

with respect, no you can't rotate the chair anyplace you want it......

See:

4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer.

The chair is a prop.....

Let me make sure I understood got the application of the RO's discretion correctly:

So in the case the competitor who just moves the chair back to give themselves more working room, the I may give a procedural, but it's recommended that I do not.

In the case the competitor who flips the chair around to give themselves more working room, the I may give a procedural, and it's recommended that I do. (Additionally, I should instruct the shooter to set the chair the correct direction before I start him.)

Personally, I think that if the WSB didn't stipulate the chair position, and the chair wasn't nailed down or marked, the chair should be a prop that the shooter is allowed to manipulate just like a door, port, etc.

So, the shooter can spin the wall containing the door, to put the handle on the appropriate side?

No, I'm not suggesting that you whack the shooter with a procedural for turning the chair 180 degrees. I'm suggesting he's not allowed to manipulate the prop to that extent -- and you shouldn't start him unless he's in a satisfactory position that you deem complies with the WSB......

Clearly it's possible that a five foot tall shooter might want the chair in a different position -- in relation to a table, wall, or other object -- than a shooter who's 6'6".....

Can you not see the difference between making an allowance for a competitor's build, or for safety, and someone turning the stage upside down? Really?

I thought I saw the difference and hence my reasoning for no procedural for adjusting the chair back, but a procedural for turning it around.

The only reason why I added the sentence marked in blue above is because a couple people have contacted me annoyed about my not making clear what my stance was on a topic. The blue text is my personal stance. I don't have to like the rules to enforce them.

I do like your approach of instead of imposing a penalty for a blatant rearrangement of the chair, is to just not start the shooter until the chair is put back into a equitable position. No rulebook clubbing.

[Nik Habicht]

And Nik, I was simply using your topic as an example - I didn't mean to call you out on it - my apologies if it appeared that way - thank you for seed of thought.

Two quick thoughts:

I agree -- specificity is the stage designer's/RO's/CRO's/RM's friend -- always. Even if that specificity allows the shooter to do almost anything.....

Second,I didn't think you called me out -- I simply came home from work, and started working through the thread in linear fashion.....

Hence the bunch of posts.... :P

[Nik Habicht]

I do like your approach of instead of imposing a penalty for a blatant rearrangement of the chair, is to just not start the shooter until the chair is put back into a equitable position. No rulebook clubbing.

Sky,

now you're getting that.....

The discretionary procedural is also there for another reason: To deal with a shooter who chooses to mark the ground, to identify foot positions, and to deal with the shooter who continues to rearrange things, despite being counseled. In that scenario it might serve as a final warning prior to imposition of 10.6.1.....

[Poppa Bear]

When we do a table or chair start we always specify either chair placement, hand placement, knee placement, or some other placement that makes all starts consistent while allowing for different body styles.

I generally like large hand placement areas that do not restrict the shooter to a .0001" placement of the appropriate part. Ie. a piece of 2" wide tape about 8" long where the shooter has to have both forefingers touching the tape. Whether the shooter wants to have his fingers touching, 2" apart, 4" apart, or the full 8" apart they can find a position that is comfortable for the start.

Chairs are marked for a start that is just the chair, some body part is marked for a start that requires the use of a table. This allows the shooter to find a comfortable position while keeping the start consistent.

I do not like starts that require you to place hands on knees, feet flat on floor, feet touching, back flat against the chair back and a dozen other conditions that require the RO to spend 30 seconds making sure all of the conditions have been met just so that the shooter can get out of the chair before moving 5 steps to the first shooting position.