Crimp problems with .38 special and Lee FCD

[jaredr]

Background:

I’ve just moved up to a Dillon XL650 from a lee pro 1000. I really love the new press - insert traditional dillon praise here for the XL650 and for buying from Brian, who was a great guy to deal with and also saved me some $ setting up the powder check system for 4 calibers. I have loaded about 8000 rounds on it over the last four months or so, about 6000 in 45 ACP and 2000 or so in 9mm. In both of these calibers, I re-used my lee re-sizing die and took my lee seat/crimp die and backed it out so I could just use it to seat the bullet in station 4. I then purchased Lee factory crimp dies for station 5 where I actually apply the taper crimp. I’d checked out this arrangement on this forum – folks had generally said it would work fine, and they were right. Except for the occasional piece of .45 A-merc brass that sneaks through, every round I’ve loaded has chambered fine and I’ve been very pleased with the press and the ammo it has produced.

Problem:

I’ve set up the press to start loading up .38 special, using the same arrangement as before – resizing/decapping with the lee resizing die, backing out the lee crimp die to use just for bullet seating, and then roll crimping with a .38 special Lee factory crimp die. While I’ll load up some light wadcutter rounds for bullseye later on, right now I’m reloading +P ammo for practice with my 642, and I need a strong crimp to produce good ignition and to also avoid bullets in the cylinder creeping forward under recoil. Unfortunately, when I try and apply a nice firm roll crimp with the 38 special Lee FCD, instead of getting the brass nicely rolled over into the cannelure, the crimp die looks like it is almost applying a taper crimp – the finished round looks like a bastardized .357 sig, with this tiny .03-.05” band of brass that appears pressed into the cannelure from the side rather then rolled over a bit from the top. I tried taking some photos, but my crummy digital camera can’t focus closely enough to show the detail I’m describing.

Backing the crimp die out enough to avoid this condition produces a very weak crimp – turn the bullet upside down and apply strong pressure to the base and you’ll set the bullet back into the case by .2” or more easily.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas on how to resolve this, I’d appreciate the advice. I’ve had good luck with Lee’s dies in general, and their taper-crimp factory crimp dies have worked very well for me. Maybe I just got a crimp die with a floating crimp that was out of spec? if anyone out there is reloading 38/.357/.44 on their XL650, I’d certainly be interested in hearing what dies and setups work for you.

Thanks for reading,

Jared

[Bronson7]

Jaredr, I may be wrong here as I don't load for wheel guns, but I really don't see the benefit of the LFCD in your application. That die is meant for auto-loaders. A standard roll crimp die should work for you just fine. Just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe more experienced loaders will have more to add.

Bronson7

[Dan Burwell]

Lee does make a seperate roll crimp die. I use a set up you are describing to reload 44mag, but I am getting a nice roll crimp. I would double check that you truely have a 38 special and not a 38 super crimp die. If you have the correct die I'd give Lee an email or phone call. I have always been happy with thier customer service.

Dan

[wadel]

I just started loading 38 Spcl on a 650 a month ago. I ordered the Dillon set of dies and the roll crimp die seems to work great (actually, I think Brian described it as a taper/roll crimp die). I cannot set back the bullets by pressing on them. However, I am loading fairly light rounds for steel and have not tested the crimp with stiffer loads. So, with my light loads there is no problem with the bullets jumping forward.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Get rid of the LEE FCD and use a standard crimp die. If you want to increase case neck tension, the best way to do it is by resizing the case to slightly under SAAMI . I use an EGW U die which has a slightly undersized insert. If a roll crimp is what you want then get the right die for the job. I think you'll find that if you ask here, there are some strong oppinions pro and con concerning the Lee FCD. Not a consensus by a long shot.............

[Yardbird]

I use FCD for 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag, hot 45 Colt and 454 Casull along with all my semiauto calibers. I wouldn't load without it.

[.40AET]

I reloaded .38 special for 5 years on a Pro 1000 with a standard 3 die set and never had any problems. Same goes for changing to .357. The standard roll crimp found in the 3 die set is all most have used for years. If you want to separate the seating and crimping stations, try adding another seater/crimp die and use one for seating and one for final crimp. Better yet, get the Redding competion seating die. The redding die will make it a lot easier to switch between .38 and .357.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/pages/comphandseatdie.html

[DougCarden]

Try this. screw down the die until is almost bottomed out(from the top). Then screw up the knob most of the way. This way when you have your ram down you can turn the knob down until you get resistance. Then you can start applying your crimp. I have to do this everytime I set up for another caliber on the 1050. I think what is happening is that the body of the die is not down enough and you cant turn down the crimp screw enough to roll crimp properly. Nothing wrong with the FCD in 38 special.

[slughammer]

if anyone out there is reloading 38/.357/.44 on their XL650, I’d certainly be interested in hearing what dies and setups work for you.

Yes, 38/357/44spl/44mag on my 650.

357, 44spl and 44mag all use regular 3 die sets with the seat & roll crimp in one die. For jacketed with the canelure and lead with the crimp groove, three dies work just fine. Some RCBS some LEE.

For 38 spl I use lead bullets without a crimp groove. I use the seat die with the crimp backed off and I use a taper crimp in a separate station.

I don't know how to make revolver ammo bad enough to need a FCD to make it work? Toss the FCD.

[jaredr]

Thanks for everyone's replies. When I was setting up my 650, I purchased factory crimp dies for 9mm, .45 ACP and .38 super since I wanted to be able to seat and crimp separately now that I had more then 3 stations. I went ahead and bought a FCD for .38 special as well - i fgured i'd need an extra die just for crimping if I used my old seat & crimp die just for seating, and even though this cartridge required a roll crimp rather then a taper, it couldn't hurt to use a FCD that would resize the cartridge (although I've admittedly never reloaded a .38 or .357 round on my old pro 1000 that wouldn't drop into the cylinder). I assumed that the FCD would produce a proper roll crimp, because, uh, well who the heck would make a .38 special die with a taper crimp?

DougC - thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately, I get the same bizarre crimping problem - lightly rolled over doesn't produce enough grip, and when I tighten down the FCD more, it appears to crush the brass in from the side, looking a tiny bit like a bottleneck cartridge.

To make matters a little more confusing - I tried getting rid of the FCD and just seating and crimping (like I used to do in my Lee pro 100) at station four on the 650. I got the same problem. although not to the same degree. My recollection from the pro 1000 is that when you apply too much crimp, you'll start to buckle the case. with that same die on my XL650, it appears that the additional crimp is just taper-crushing the brass into the bullet from the side, but not really rolling it over. I think I'll pull the seat crimp die, disassemble, clean, and start over.

I don't really think cleaning it will do much, but if I'm getting the same error with my OLD seat/crimp die, then it's probably a user error and maybe just starting over will be a good idea to figure out where I went wrong.

Thanks,

Jared

[jaredr]

I called Lee and described the crimp problem I was experiencing - spoke with a fellow named Dave who indicated that the "pressed in band" of brass is the correct crimp from a FCD die in a roll-crimp caliber. While it was not the nice, traditional roll crimp I was used to, I loaded up about 50 rounds and took them to the range. From the 1 & 7/8" barrel of my 642, they were as accurate as the old rounds. I'll probably buy redding profile crimp dies for loading roll crimp cartridges on my 650 - maybe not because they're better, but just because it will be the crimp I'm used to...

[gm iprod]

Use the Dillon dies. I loaded 50,000 for a guy in Tahiti and all loaded on Dillon 650 with a complete Dillon die set. 147gr FP Lead at 950fps. Everything tested grouped under 2" at 25y from his Ruger SS GP100 as issued from the factory. Nothing set back one bit. Can't remember the actual crimp measurement but it was exactly the same as I use on my NRA AP loads for years.

Find what works (for you and your loads) and make sure it really does. I am not a fan of the Lee factory crimp die. If the sizing and other dies were made properly in the first place and then used properly, you should not need to use the FCD.

Redding profile crimp dies are also very good and in some cases better for accuracy than the Dillon dies, but there are to many variables in firearms / loads / operators to make the bold statement that any one die system is the BEST.