Single stack question...

[Nik Habicht]

Where does it say you can't. Don't we go by the quote that if the rule book doesn't say you can't do it then it is OK.

5.6.1.

Um, just looked there and challenged and changed are two different things. It says that without a chrono another shooter or match official can not callenge my PF, it does not say I can't change it does it? Nope not from what I read. You are trying to read too much into the rule like everyone else is with the division requirements. No where in the rule book does it say declaring a PF locks you in. I can shoot 170 PF loads all day and decide to have the extra rounds and be scored minor. Once again show the rule that says I can't. Just like there is no rule that says choosing a PF bumps me to open if I don't make it. Would you bump me to open if I declared minor with a 40 and went 169 at the chrono? Of course not, because you would say the minimum pf for the division is 125. It seems that for once I simply live in the wrong region since IPSC seems to read our rule like I do. They did pretty much base theirs off of ours. Everyone wants to keep saying it is very clear, when in fact it is not. The BE members are a small minority of the overall shooters. I bet a sampling of the larger population would show a big split in how people would rule on this.

You can't make that decision in the middle of the match......

See:

5.1.7 Competitors must use the same handgun and type of sights for all courses of fire in a match. However, in the event that a competitor’s original handgun and/or sights become unserviceable or unsafe during a match, the competitor must, before using a substitute handgun and/or sights, seek permission from the Range Master who may approve the substitution provided he is satisfied:

5.1.7.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the relevant Division.

5.1.7.2 In using the substitute handgun the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage.

5.1.7.3 The competitor’s replacement handgun and its appropriate ammunition must be chronographed per Rule 5.6, regardless of whether or not the original handgun was previously tested.

5.1.7.4 If the original handgun/ammunition was not previously tested, and if the original handgun has already been used on a stage, and can be safely fired (i.e. the malfunction is not related to an inability to safely fire the handgun), then the original handgun and its ammunition supply remain subject to testing.

5.1.8 A competitor who substitutes or significantly modifies a handgun during a match without the prior approval of the Range Master will be subject to the provisions of Section 10.6.

You can insist on a move to minor -- and an RM could invoke Section 10.6.1 -- since you've clearly planned a "significant modification to the handgun's ammunition capacity" without seeking the required range master approval..... :P

[aztecdriver]

Where does it say you can't. Don't we go by the quote that if the rule book doesn't say you can't do it then it is OK.

5.6.1.

Um, just looked there and challenged and changed are two different things. It says that without a chrono another shooter or match official can not callenge my PF, it does not say I can't change it does it? Nope not from what I read. You are trying to read too much into the rule like everyone else is with the division requirements. No where in the rule book does it say declaring a PF locks you in. I can shoot 170 PF loads all day and decide to have the extra rounds and be scored minor. Once again show the rule that says I can't. Just like there is no rule that says choosing a PF bumps me to open if I don't make it. Would you bump me to open if I declared minor with a 40 and went 169 at the chrono? Of course not, because you would say the minimum pf for the division is 125. It seems that for once I simply live in the wrong region since IPSC seems to read our rule like I do. They did pretty much base theirs off of ours. Everyone wants to keep saying it is very clear, when in fact it is not. The BE members are a small minority of the overall shooters. I bet a sampling of the larger population would show a big split in how people would rule on this.

Ok - I've said this in every way that I believe I can. I've also told you your chrono bump to open argument is crap because there are specific rules regarding the administration and results of chrono testing, so stop using it as an argument. I've given credence to your arguement, I still believe you to be wrong. I've seen support on here from several RM/CRO as well one BOD for my argument. I suggest you send a note to DNROI and get your opinion from here. If I'm RM, you're submitting the arb form to try and get your minor variance... I can tell you from the known pool of shooters in this region, it won't be affirmed.

And I really am saying this not in the "a**((&" voice, I'm sincere... I have no other way of interpreting this. I have thought about what you said, I just don't agree with it. Faced with making the call- i'd have to make it with a bump to open - still and all.

Edited November 10, 2011 by aztecdriver

[sperman]

I bet a sampling of the larger population would show a big split in how people would rule on this.

It really doesn't matter how the masses would rule on this (especially those outside the US.) The people who are going to make this decision are CRO's and RM's at larger matches.

If you are convinced this the move to minor is the proper call, I suggest you go to Barry this year, declare major, and use a mag with 9 rounds in the middle of a stage. Be sure to do it on Gary Steven's stage. You know he will bump you to open, ensuring you get to plead your case with the RM.

[steel1212]

What I want to know is how many people that are arguing against getting bumped to open have actually been bumped to open while shooting their .40 SS? What I'm seeing is a lot of shooters that don't shoot SS much arguing for a rule to be change that doesn't even affect them. It would be like me arguing to have the IPSC production rules instated into production so that I can load the mags all the way up on the CZ that I shoot occasionally.

I am curious what is the required number of matches shot in a particular division before someone can discuss these things?

Really you took that personal? The reference I was making is that why are people, that don't shoot the division, worried about a rule that, those of that shoot the division, don't even worry about?

Some may be thinking about shooting the division, some may be interested in how they should make a ruling at a match, some might just be curious as to how the rulebook is interpreted.

How its interpreted? Its a black and white rule. Shoot more than 9 while declaring major and you get bumped to open. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, OPEN. Its just that simple there is no need to change it. Its the same for all the other divisions. There is no need to bump you down to minor just don't do it. You guys have fun I'm going to bow out I've got shooting to do

[spanky]

Simply put, the rule book does not allow for movement to minor after you have violated the divisional requirement.

I will submit that I don't see anything that disallows you moving yourself from major to minor. However, you would need to do this BEFORE the infraction occurs. At the point at which the infraction occurs, you have violated a divisional requirement because you are, at that moment, shooting under a declared power factor of major and are required by the respective divisional appendix to comply with the published capacity limits.

[Skydiver]

hello, on globall village they talk this subject and ipsc say change to minor not to open.

From what I can see from that Global Village thread, that conclusion was reached in post #24, as a result of the statement in post #12 stating that as a possible precedent that the US Single Stack rules say its just a move to minor.

In that post #12, the author wrote this:

I would rule that since the shooter "chose" to load 9 rounds (either intentionally, or by "aw s***" means) he has relegated himself to minor scoring in Classic Division for the duration of the match. (This is exactly how it is treated under USPSA Single Stack rules, BTW.)

Can somebody point me to the US Single Stack rules? My google searches just keep taking me to USPSA website which has the current rulebook.

I was under the impression that way we treat this in the US is a bump to Open, not a change to minor scoring. (And I completely endorse such a bump to Open.)

Edited November 10, 2011 by Skydiver

[bbbean]

Putting aside all the rule parsing and how-many-angels-can-dance-in-the-head-of-a-pin arguments, does anyone think it's a good idea or in the spirit of the game to allow shooters to game the system by loading more than 8 rounds and still declaring major until they get caught or unless they later decide it's advantageous to run minor?

[aztecdriver]

Putting aside all the rule parsing and how-many-angels-can-dance-in-the-head-of-a-pin arguments, does anyone think it's a good idea or in the spirit of the game to allow shooters to game the system by loading more than 8 rounds and still declaring major until they get caught or unless they later decide it's advantageous to run minor?

BINGO! - and I'm arguing that it's not allowed until someone tells me I'm wrong for sure...

[Fireant]

My, my, my, crap huh? I could say that thinking that SS major and minor being treated as two separate divisions within one division is also. But I won't because unlike some I can see and agree with the argument from both sides. The problem is neither side can point to a rule that makes it as black and white as some people would like to think it is. Just saying it's in the division requirements is not cutting it. Saying the chrono is the only thing that changes declared PF is also not cutting or even true. I would like to see a ruling on this from DNROI and not just someone(anyone's) oppinion. The rule book even says you declare a division not a PF. The division is SS, you load 8 and might get scored major if the chrono agrees, you load 10 anf you are scored minor. Nothing says my division is ss Major or Minor. So, there are some people on both sides and even at least one that thinks you can change your PF claim during the match before you load the extra rounds. I'm not even going to open the door and try to find the path for Nik's idea. I think we would all get lost on that trip.

[Fireant]

I'm not saying it is OK until you get caught. I'm saying if the opps happens, the way the rules are laid out right now, I don't see a clear justification for a bump to open. Now, if you are doing it to cheat, then hanging is too good for them even.

[aztecdriver]

My, my, my, crap huh? I could say that thinking that SS major and minor being treated as two separate divisions within one division is also. But I won't because unlike some I can see and agree with the argument from both sides. The problem is neither side can point to a rule that makes it as black and white as some people would like to think it is. Just saying it's in the division requirements is not cutting it. Saying the chrono is the only thing that changes declared PF is also not cutting or even true. I would like to see a ruling on this from DNROI and not just someone(anyone's) oppinion. The rule book even says you declare a division not a PF. The division is SS, you load 8 and might get scored major if the chrono agrees, you load 10 anf you are scored minor. Nothing says my division is ss Major or Minor. So, there are some people on both sides and even at least one that thinks you can change your PF claim during the match before you load the extra rounds. I'm not even going to open the door and try to find the path for Nik's idea. I think we would all get lost on that trip.

I've made my points. Feel free to contact DNROI and start with an opinion and then ask for a published ruling. You already have one of the members of the BOD that has shown you his thoughts. Good luck.

ETA - oh, and don't take offense to my crap arguments discussion - I'd say it to you in person the same way - it's just my way of "calling BS" - it doesn't hold water. You might think it does, and I understand WHY you think it does, but when you have specific if then else statements in C2 as to what happens when you don't make major/minor - you can't compare the two....

IF you wish to continue the discussion, feel free. We're at an impasse.

Edited November 10, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Fireant]

My, my, my, crap huh? I could say that thinking that SS major and minor being treated as two separate divisions within one division is also. But I won't because unlike some I can see and agree with the argument from both sides. The problem is neither side can point to a rule that makes it as black and white as some people would like to think it is. Just saying it's in the division requirements is not cutting it. Saying the chrono is the only thing that changes declared PF is also not cutting or even true. I would like to see a ruling on this from DNROI and not just someone(anyone's) oppinion. The rule book even says you declare a division not a PF. The division is SS, you load 8 and might get scored major if the chrono agrees, you load 10 anf you are scored minor. Nothing says my division is ss Major or Minor. So, there are some people on both sides and even at least one that thinks you can change your PF claim during the match before you load the extra rounds. I'm not even going to open the door and try to find the path for Nik's idea. I think we would all get lost on that trip.

I've made my points. Feel free to contact DNROI and start with an opinion and then ask for a published ruling. You already have one of the members of the BOD that has shown you his thoughts. Good luck.

Yep, as have I. But you still can't cite a rule that applies with out reading more in to it than is there. I have checked to see how to get an official ruling instead of an opinion.

[Corey]

Actually, you do have to declare a PF, unless you are shooting Production of course.

I personally don't see how this has gone 5 pages . 8 rounds in the mag or you go to Open. Whats the problem?

[aztecdriver]

Actually, you do have to declare a PF, unless you are shooting Production of course.

I personally don't see how this has gone 5 pages . 8 rounds in the mag or you go to Open. Whats the problem?

Actually, now declaring production division automatically declares minor pf and it's gone 5 pages because clearly I don't know when to give up

Edited November 10, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Strick]

Putting aside all the rule parsing and how-many-angels-can-dance-in-the-head-of-a-pin arguments, does anyone think it's a good idea or in the spirit of the game to allow shooters to game the system by loading more than 8 rounds and still declaring major until they get caught or unless they later decide it's advantageous to run minor?

How is it any different than any other division in that regard? Someone could try to game the system declaring major until the get caught by the chrono.

[bbbean]

Putting aside all the rule parsing and how-many-angels-can-dance-in-the-head-of-a-pin arguments, does anyone think it's a good idea or in the spirit of the game to allow shooters to game the system by loading more than 8 rounds and still declaring major until they get caught or unless they later decide it's advantageous to run minor?

How is it any different than any other division in that regard? Someone could try to game the system declaring major until the get caught by the chrono.

I wouldn't think much of that, either.

[uzi]

Feel free to contact DNROI and start with an opinion and then ask for a published ruling. You already have one of the members of the BOD that has shown you his thoughts.

hello any body get asnwer for USA? mr.pinto answer from gv is here.

[steel1212]

Feel free to contact DNROI and start with an opinion and then ask for a published ruling. You already have one of the members of the BOD that has shown you his thoughts.

hello any body get asnwer for USA? mr.pinto answer from gv is here.

In classic can they shoot 10+1 in major?

[aztecdriver]

Feel free to contact DNROI and start with an opinion and then ask for a published ruling. You already have one of the members of the BOD that has shown you his thoughts.

hello any body get asnwer for USA? mr.pinto answer from gv is here.

Sounds like Vince has the same logic at play that Fireant does - unfortunately, he's IPSC and there is more to disagree with than a rule interpretation for me, personally... Not the point.

Fireant, have you submitted the question and received a response... I'd like to hear an opinion regardless if it's a ruling or not.

[Nik Habicht]

Feel free to contact DNROI and start with an opinion and then ask for a published ruling. You already have one of the members of the BOD that has shown you his thoughts.

hello any body get asnwer for USA? mr.pinto answer from gv is here.

Sounds like Vince has the same logic at play that Fireant does - unfortunately, he's IPSC and there is more to disagree with than a rule interpretation for me, personally... Not the point.

Fireant, have you submitted the question and received a response... I'd like to hear an opinion regardless if it's a ruling or not.

I bounced it off one of the RMIs, whose take mirrors mine:

Once you declare a power factor in SS division, everyone knows what the acceptable mag capacity is for the competitor to remain in the division. So, a shooter declares major, and is later found to have more than 8 rounds in a magazine -- the shooter is moved to open, because there is no provision for changing the shooter's power factor unless the shooter busts chrono.....

[Fireant]

The reply I recieved was the same as Nik's, but I still contend that the rules do not support it. Just because we want it that way, does not make it so. I think if people really looked at the written rules and not just the fact that we always bump to open you would see that. I have asked my AD to look into an official ruling. A shooter CAN change their PF at any time and this would not be a challenge to the PF, but a change to the scoring. As much as it pains me to admit this, Vince and I are on the same page here. Damn, that hurt more that a bump to open

[Nik Habicht]

Where do you find that a shooter can change their power factor at any time?

[Skydiver]

Where do you find that a shooter can change their power factor at any time?

I may have confused matters when I brought up my devil's advocate question in post #43. Fortunately, you correctly addressed in a later post #46..

Edited November 17, 2011 by Skydiver

[Fireant]

The question is where does it say I can not? The book states I must declare a PF, what if I declare major, then I run out of ammo and have to go back to the truck and use some minor ammo to finish a stage. Now I have to be scored minor for the match. No chrono involved, I just know I'm not shooting major for the last stage.

[Nik Habicht]

The question is where does it say I can not? The book states I must declare a PF, what if I declare major, then I run out of ammo and have to go back to the truck and use some minor ammo to finish a stage. Now I have to be scored minor for the match. No chrono involved, I just know I'm not shooting major for the last stage.

You'd need to consult the RM in that case, at penalty of 10.6.1......

You're free to utilize 17 different kinds of ammo at a match, but we expect you to declare the proper power factor at registration, and to present all of it to chrono, if there is one.....

If you think you might need some of that minor ammo to finish the match -- the proper course would be to declare minor at registration. If you want to wait, to see if you need it, and declare major, well, there's a capacity limit that goes along with that choice. Declare major = 8 rounds in a magazine. Bust that (9 rounds in a mag), you're still shooting major, and are moved to open.....

If you later are moved to minor (following chrono, or following a conversation with an RM about needing to finish with minor ammo) you are then free to load to 10 in a mag.....