Production Division specific caliber question

[Spindrift]

My eyeballs are dripping down my cheeks from reading all day. Glad I FINALLY at least found the right place, so I'm going to just ASK the question. I plan to shoot production division. I may never have the money to buy the gun I want again, so I want to make sure I get it right. I shoot a .40 S&W Sigma now. Don't know if I'll ever reload, but have been saving my brass for years. Shot my friend's 9mm the other day, we plan to compete together, and it was a dream to handle, recoil wise.

I have been researching and reading and learning, and have wanted a Beretta 92/96 for years. Lately the desire is more urgent, before my wife does something stupid again, like when she took the AR 15 money I had saved and bought a new furnace for the house. I could have kept patching that old one another 5 years. So I'm torn between 9mm and .40 cal. I keep thinking I can have somebody at my club reload for me, and will have a lot of brass if all my guns are .40. Then again, if there's a shortage in the stores of NEW ammo, having a 40 AND a 9 might be a blessing. I'm SO confused.

THEN, there's the issue I just discovered yesterday. Do I get 92/96 FS.... or the VORTEC, which I can't find listed on the Beretta sight. OR the new last year for a few more bucks A1 model with updated goodies like rails and more beef?

I know this is mostly up to the individual, and can be debated to eternity, but I have NEVER sold a gun, because I always buy what I need and research it to death first. So... please, any help, facts, opinions, and information is much appreciated. I'm afraid my Beretta may turn into a dishwasher or something if I don't decide soon.

[Hi-Power Jack]

The 9mm is perfect for Production ...

The Beretta (again, it's all personal choice),

is NOT perfect for Production - much better

choices.

Cheapest way to do it is to shoot what you

have - try that and see how you like it -

and get a reloading outfit - you'll save a

bundle on the ammo and get to customize it

for your gun/use - will be better/cheaper ammo.

After you've shot IPSC for a season, you'll know

better which gun you want to shoot next year:)

Good luck,

Jack

[Cy Soto]

The Beretta (again, it's all personal choice), is NOT perfect for Production - much better choices.

Ben Stoeger might disagree with you...

To the OP:

IMO, .40S&W would work well for production if you could reload your ammo for Minor PF. Store-bought ammunition will have a lot more recoil and will be more expensive than 9mm.

I will warn you against having another person reload for you. Reloading mistakes can happen and pistols can be damaged in the process.

[motosapiens]

IMO, .40S&W would work well for production if you could reload your ammo for Minor PF. Store-bought ammunition will have a lot more recoil and will be more expensive than 9mm.

I will warn you against having another person reload for you. Reloading mistakes can happen and pistols can be damaged in the process.

Agree. If you're not going to reload, I would not shoot .40 in production (or idpa-ssp class). But you should reload. Even in 9mm, there is a significant recoil (and cleanliness) difference between factory fmj ammo and good light minor power-factor handload.

You don't have to dive in headfirst with reloading. For $200 or so you can be rolling with a single-stage kit. It's not as fast as a fancy setup, but it's safer for a beginner and I can still load up 100-150 rounds in an hour.

in general, either a 9 or a 40 are great. I personally shoot more 40 because i get brass free from work. if i got once-fired 9mm brass of the same brand for free, I'd shoot 9 without a second thought.

[Sin-ster]

.40 can work well for Production, if you develop a solid Minor PF load. It took my friend some doing, but he found one that was both soft and accurate. And as an added bonus, it takes down steel like a champ. (Keep in mind that you have to be hand loading to really make it work to your advantage, and you'll have to deal with Glock Bulge in a ton of the brass you encounter. It's not difficult to correct, but it does mean some special attention in one way, shape or form-- and I'm not sure how well you'd like it with a Single Stage press.)

The Beretta will work, but as Jack said, it's typically not considered optimal. Plan on tuning up the rotten DA trigger pull-- the first shot of every stage will require its use. If you're used to shooting a Sigma, though... it may not bother you at all. You're also limited on sight options without some smith work, which just means more time and money spent for results that are just "okay". There aren't a ton of accessories for the platform in terms of the game we play, either-- and make SURE you get mags that work, or you'll be miserable.

If it's the gun you really want, you can definitely make it work-- either by dealing with the shortcomings, or being patient and diligent in tracking down and paying for all of the random stuff. If you get serious about shooting matches (and you almost certainly will), you'll wish you had bought something else. Glock, CZ, M&P, XD-- those are the big players, and what you see the most often (for good reason).

[Spindrift]

The Beretta (again, it's all personal choice), is NOT perfect for Production - much better choices.

Ben Stoeger might disagree with you...

wow. Thanks for that. I googled Ben and got lost in his website. Read the page on "Why I shoot a Beretta." I guess I was under the false impression that external modifications were not allowed, but I read he has "extended mag release buttons." I was going to swap mine over when I got it to use my index finger on the lefty side. Although the store where I looked at the 92 wouldn't let me pull the trigger, I thoroughly went over the rest of it, and the mag release buttons STINK.

I'm wondering; once the shooter starts reloading customizing charges, is there any reason for me to believe that a .40 will take down steel that a 9 will not?

[Cy Soto]

I'm wondering; once the shooter starts reloading customizing charges, is there any reason for me to believe that a .40 will take down steel that a 9 will not?

That whole thing about needing a heavy bullet to take down steel is overrated. I know quite a few folks (including myself) who shoot 124gr 9mm bullets and I cannot say that I have ever had any issues knocking down steel (as long as I am doing my part to hit it).

[blaster113]

I suggest starting in Production with 9mm. In a pinch you can use factory ammo which should make power factor and not recoil too bad, vs. factory .40 which kicks like a mule if you dont have time to reload. Once fired 9mm brass is dirt cheap and you can load it tons of times. Component bullets are a tiny bit cheaper, 124/147 grain 9mm vs. light .40. A minor .40 should take down steel a little better than a 9mm, but then again I've gotten crappy hits on steel with my major .40 and .38SC rounds and found the steel still up

[Sin-ster]

I'm wondering; once the shooter starts reloading customizing charges, is there any reason for me to believe that a .40 will take down steel that a 9 will not?

That whole thing about needing a heavy bullet to take down steel is overrated. I know quite a few folks (including myself) who shoot 124gr 9mm bullets and I cannot say that I have ever had any issues knocking down steel (as long as I am doing my part to hit it).

I think THAT's the point being made, though...

You don't have to do as much of your part with the heavier bullets. I've seen 147 minors get edge hits and take a plate that was slow to fall for me with just a slightly low one. Although I can't confirm for sure, I'd guess that .40 minor would have even more leeway in this regard.

It definitely chaps me when I spike a plate just below the line and it stands there mocking me, and then some Limited shooter hits it on the edge about 8" lower and it falls like it was spring loaded.

But hey. That's why Production is full of better shooters.

[BradGannaway]

Here's my .02----- Get a Glock 34. I say that not because they are better guns, but because the modifications that are allowed in production are really easy to do to a Glock on your own. Also, there are a lot of people that sale Glock stuff in the classifieds, which makes it that much easier to get cheap parts.

If not the Glock 34.....get the M&P or XDM. All three of these guns are double action only which means you only have to learn one trigger pull. (the beretta and cz require you to shoot DA on first shot, then SA thereafter)

For caliber......9 mm ALL DAY LONG! Primary reason is price. It costs me about .09 a round to reload 9mm. Plus, as stated, brass is easy to find on the range, and you'll deal with much less recoil starting out.

Last thing....if you can't afford a Dillon 550, and you are not willing to save for it, then I would suggest looking at a Lee Classic Turret press kit. You can get that set up for less than $125.00; add in a $10 micrometer, you are good to go. That's what I started with and loaded with it for a year. I could get about 120 rounds an hour reloaded.....then I visited my brother and used his 550......and I got HOOKED!

Again....just my .02; hope this helps.

BSG

[Spindrift]

LOL @ Sin ster "stands there mocking". Well, my S&W is double only, and I'm not real fond of that. I thought there was some new law in assachusetts, no new Glocks or something? I never paid attention to them much because they're so damn ugly. I know they were the innovation in polymers guns. I woke up at 3:30 AM and went downstairs to add wood to the stove, and grabbed a hunk of old newspaper. I'm looking down with one half open eye at Bass Pro page and it says Beretta 92FS $549.97. THAT woke me up! LOL I'm going to take allyall's advice (learned that in Texas) : ) and shoot what I have for now. Hide the cash from momma, and buy something when I'm POSITIVE. Still... this 92 is that hottie staring at me from across the room. I have to run, somehow I got charged with building a new outdoor archery range at the club, but no need to end this thread. Somebody else will be in my predicament at some point, and I know I won't decide on the 9 vs 40 thing til I'm standing there with the money in my hand paying for whatever I get. Brrrr. Nippley out today.

[Torogi]

OP, here's what you do.

1. Shoot one USPSA match with your gun. Do you have your shooting gears already? Look at CPWSA, or Shooter's Connection or Power Factor Shooting for all the gears that you need. They are dealers here in Benos.

2. When at a match, try and ask if you could try other shooters gun. You'll be surprised they are more than willing to let you try on their gun. Feel the recoil, see the sights. If you have a paper, write it down.

3. THEN decide which gun you want. If you really wanted a Beretta, go for it. If for some reason that in the future you feel that the gun isn't improving your game, sell it That way your money is rolling. You can sell your sigma too if you want and fund your beretta

4. Like others have said, trust only your reload. For production, go 9mm. If you have never shot USPSA/IPSC, production is scored minor.

Minor- 125PF; Major-165PF

Power factor (PF) is speed of bullet factored with bullet weight. Faster, more kick on recoil, slower, softer recoil.

Factory loads: (in general)

40S&W- Major load (more kick)

9mm- Minor Load (less kick)

So, in production, since it is only scored minor, there is no point of shoot major. Hence, 9mm is preferred.

In any case you want your gun to be soft shooting as much as possible. Easier to track the sight.

my 2c.

Good luck!

EDIT: my dealer links aint working.. and still not working.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Torogi

[GrumpyOne]

You might want to look into CZ before making a final decision.

[98sr20ve]

Pick a 9mm from this list Glock 17/34, M&P Pro/L, XD-M 5.25/etc, CZ Shadow/etc (with beavertail DA/SA). For the time being a good gun smith can improve that Sigma trigger. Then get the Lee CLASSIC Turret from Kempfs gun shop (since your being thrifty). Buy the Dillon scale ($55) and a 9mm case gauge from Brian Enos. You can skip a tumbler for a little while. Buy a box of 124gr Montana Gold bullets. Get some TiteGroup and start loading. I think your done at that point. The better choice is to get a 550 but your on a budget so the LCT is your next best choice. A Sigma with a improved trigger is shootable. I would start reloading first, shoot a lot more and then decide on a gun in the next year. You can get the trigger work for a reasonable price. Go to some USPSA matches and find the gun smiths at the matches. In a couple months you will have a list of 2 or more gun smiths to choose from who also shoot and will have a better chance of success then just going to your local gun shop. Basically get plugged into shooting USPSA, wait at least a month or two before doing anything. Learn from shooting what you got, make some friends. Then move forward with the above plan.

[Hi-Power Jack]

You might want to look into CZ before making a final decision.

+1. But, start reloading, now!

[Spindrift]

I already got rid of that MA 10 lb trigger thing. Big improvement.

<--- link you tube tutorial OK it says I'm too new to put a link in but google S&W Sigma 40 trigger fix you tube if anyone wants to do that fix. Very easy.

Then there was that ergonomic lump blocking my access to the mag release button. Bench grinder and dremel got that flush. Works great.

A few people here have mentioned the CZ. Particular model in mind? Might be the one my partner is shooting. I think for the small amount of money I'd get selling the S&W I'd keep it to carry in Maine. I get deep in the woods all alone often. Somebody at the club just now mentioned a new Remington 1911 and thought they MIGHT come in .40 and or 9. I'll look into that since it seems to be a very popular platform, and he said he thought they were around $800. So I'll check that out too. I agree. For now, I'll shoot what I have. See how I do tomorrow at my first shoot. Thanks again for the input. I'll check back in.

[Cy Soto]

Then there was that ergonomic lump blocking my access to the mag release button. Bench grinder and dremel got that flush. Works great.

Remember that, if you are going to be shooting Production, you cannot change the contour of the pistol's frame by Dremeling away material.

A few people here have mentioned the CZ. Particular model in mind?

The most popular choice is the CZ Shadow. They are great guns but they are not inexpensive. By the time you have made all the "required" Production modifications to the firearm you are looking at having spent $1,100 to $1,200. On top of this, magazines are about $40 each.

[Hi-Power Jack]

A few people here have mentioned the CZ. Particular model in mind?

Ben Stoeger might be able to beat you with a Beretta, but YOU will shoot

Better with a CZ than you can with a Beretta - easier to shoot well = great for Production:)

If I were going to shoot Production, I'd buy a CZ.

But, reload 1st.

Jack

[Spindrift]

"Remember that, if you are going to be shooting Production, you cannot change the contour of the pistol's frame by Dremeling away material. " I was thinking it was more like changing the grips. Good thing the group I'm shooting with tomorrow is very unofficial. There are a few ppl with some star trek looking guns shooting agains mostly off the shelf productions.

The Shadow is pretty sweet looking. Not bashful about the price are they. CZ USA site I looked at quickly listed it for $999. Then you have to modify it? ouch.

Does anyone know if that is MA compliant?

EDIT:

Oh. Looks like this CZ USA site is selling them with mods already done? That would make it well worth the money?

The Shadow series of handguns are designed specifically for target and competition work. They include variations of the CZ 75 and the CZ SP-01. All Shadow models feature swept hi-rise beavertail frames, and slides designed without firing pin blocks for improved target trigger pulls.

The Shadow models carried by CZ-USA are assembled in Mesa Arizona by World Champion, Angus Hobdell’s CZ Custom Shop. Competition treatment on all CZ Custom models includes a competition hammer and trigger job that breaks clean at 3.5-4 lbs in SA mode and 7.0-7.8 lbs for DA mode (for DA/SA models) and the following:

* Extended firing pin

* Extended magazine release

* Drop free magazine break

* Custom reduced weight springs

* Trigger with overtravel adjustment screw

* Ambidextrous Shadow Extended Manual Safety.

* Two, 18+1 capacity extended base magazines

Edited November 5, 2011 by Spindrift

[GrumpyOne]

IMO, the CZ's are worth every penny that you pay for them. I have a custom Shadow.

[Cy Soto]

Oh. Looks like this CZ USA site is selling them with mods already done? That would make it well worth the money?

That's exactly what you want to get!

I'll be honest with you... I have an SP-01 that is pretty much converted to a Shadow and, although I like the gun a whole bunch, I still choose to shoot my Glock in Production. The main reason for this is because *I* can shoot the G34 more efficiently than I can shoot the CZ. Again, there is nothing wrong with the CZ, it is just personal preference! I mention this just so you don't fall victim to the trap of telling yourself "if I am not shooting a CZ I will never be a good shooter". No gun alone, AND I MEAN NO GUN, will ever make you win the World Shoot or USPSA Nationals by itself. Choose one... Any one platform... And practice your heart out with it! The truth is that you can do well with any gun (yes, including your Sigma) but you have to be able to afford a lot of time and $$$ for dry and live fire practice. The road to GM (and btw and I am nowhere near there) is paved with countless hours on the range and many more doing dry fire in your home.

If I was in your shoes, I will suggest that, instead of spending your money on a new blaster, spend your dough on reloading equipment. Get yourself a Dillon 550 or a Hornady Lock & Load progressive and start loading some ammo. If you cannot afford that right now, at the very least, get yourself a .22LR pistol with which you can practice your shooting fundamentals.

Welcome to the addiction that is the shooting sports!

[98sr20ve]

Oh. Looks like this CZ USA site is selling them with mods already done? That would make it well worth the money?

The Shadow series of handguns are designed specifically for target and competition work. They include variations of the CZ 75 and the CZ SP-01. All Shadow models feature swept hi-rise beavertail frames, and slides designed without firing pin blocks for improved target trigger pulls.

The Shadow models carried by CZ-USA are assembled in Mesa Arizona by World Champion, Angus Hobdell’s CZ Custom Shop. Competition treatment on all CZ Custom models includes a competition hammer and trigger job that breaks clean at 3.5-4 lbs in SA mode and 7.0-7.8 lbs for DA mode (for DA/SA models) and the following:

* Extended firing pin

* Extended magazine release

* Drop free magazine break

* Custom reduced weight springs

* Trigger with overtravel adjustment screw

* Ambidextrous Shadow Extended Manual Safety.

* Two, 18+1 capacity extended base magazines

New guns are cool but you need to be able to afford to shoot it. Start reloading first.

[CocoBolo]

Oh. Looks like this CZ USA site is selling them with mods already done? That would make it well worth the money?

That's exactly what you want to get!

I'll be honest with you... I have an SP-01 that is pretty much converted to a Shadow and, although I like the gun a whole bunch, I still choose to shoot my Glock in Production. The main reason for this is because *I* can shoot the G34 more efficiently than I can shoot the CZ. Again, there is nothing wrong with the CZ, it is just personal preference! I mention this just so you don't fall victim to the trap of telling yourself "if I am not shooting a CZ I will never be a good shooter". No gun alone, AND I MEAN NO GUN, will ever make you win the World Shoot or USPSA Nationals by itself. Choose one... Any one platform... And practice your heart out with it! The truth is that you can do well with any gun (yes, including your Sigma) but you have to be able to afford a lot of time and $$ for dry and live fire practice. The road to GM (and btw and I am nowhere near there) is paved with countless hours on the range and many more doing dry fire in your home.

If I was in your shoes, I will suggest that, instead of spending your money on a new blaster, spend your dough on reloading equipment. Get yourself a Dillon 550 or a Hornady Lock & Load progressive and start loading some ammo. If you cannot afford that right now, at the very least, get yourself a .22LR pistol with which you can practice your shooting fundamentals.

Welcome to the addiction that is the shooting sports!

Not so fast you ever shot one of those Sigma's, the trigger is like 25 pounds. Not something a guy can shoot fast. I am known for bashing tupperware guns, but actually I have to respect that the Glock can be competitive. The CZ75B or a stock Shadow will get the job done as well, with little more than a flat mag break and a lighter main spring. I definatley don't recommend a Baretta 92 in 40, the mags are short and you have to reload very short and it will cause you a lot of grief trying run major with heavy bullets, the 9 mm has done well for some shooters. The only tupperware out of the box I have shot that was very nice is the M&P pro, decent trigger right out of the box. I like heavy metal guns, not music, and a hammer, the Sig P226 is very accurate and reliable, decent trigger and if you need better Gray Guns can fix that. Lots of choices just need to figure out which one fits your hand, your budget, and you can shoot well.

When I shoot production I use a CZ SP01 Shadow Custom Shop, and I've take it to the next level, shorter DA pull, sub 2# SA pull.

t

[98sr20ve]

Not so fast you ever shot one of those Sigma's, the trigger is like 25 pounds. Not something a guy can shoot fast. I am known for bashing tupperware guns, but actually I have to respect that the Glock can be competitive.

I shot a worked over Sigma. It was not great but not bad. Kinda like a Glock with a NY trigger.

Edit: I shoot a G34.

Edited November 6, 2011 by 98sr20ve

[ihatepickles]

You might want to look into CZ before making a final decision.

+1

CZs are sweet pistols by adding $50 of springs and grip tape. The Shadow pistols have better triggers for competition than the standard pistols, whether it's the CZ 75 Shadow or CZ SP01 Shadow is up to you. The Shadow pistols don't have a firing pin block, so the trigger feels much less lumpy. The Shadows also have a nicer grip for me, due to a different beavertail and backstrap shape which gets me a higher grip.

Berettas are nice pistols, don't get me wrong. My issue with them is they all have firing pin blocks and I don't love that for competition. The FPB can be removed, but that would make the pistol illegal in IDPA. Removing the FPB is OK also illegal in USPSA Production. You'll put more effort and money into making the Beretta a sweet pistol. Ben has said he's going to swap platforms at some point, due to future availability of parts.

In the end money spent on the pistol isn't that big of a factor for me. Feeding the pistol high quality reloads is a much bigger expense. I wouldn't consider .40 in USPSA Production at all unless I could reload for it. Even then, .40 is pricier to reload for than 9mm. I'd say 9mm all the way, no question about it. If you must shoot factory ammo, American Eagle (Federal) 9mm 147gr ammo is the lightest recoiling factory stuff I know of.

If you figure you can reload 9mm for $12/100 rounds and factory is $24/100 rounds, you'll break even on buying a $929 (Brian Enos' "new reloader 550RL easy buy package") reloading setup at about 7750 rounds of factory ammo. I was pretty optimistic too, you'd be lucky to bring home $24/100 9mm ammo these days. For me, 7750 rounds is a little less than a year's worth of shooting matches and practice. In other words, I shoot about $1000 in ammo per year and it would be $2000 if I was buying factory ammo instead. My reloads are much softer shooting too.

Best of luck, it's a ton of fun to shoot but it's also a daunting amount of tech to get your head around.

Edited November 6, 2011 by ihatepickles