EduardoM Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 to the OP , if you get the CZ czechmate you can shoot both and have both divisions in one deal , any division you get involved with will mean fun if you like shooting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Update: Sorry, I know it’s a lot of reading, but I wanted to share this and let others comment. So, I have now officially switched to open division and I am totally happy with my choice. After my original post, I found myself scratching my head as to go to limited or open. I decided to take a peak to see what was out there on the used market. Found a ton of great used open and limited builds, but I still found myself going back and forth. The hardest choice was buying a used open gun. Cone vs bull vs hybrid Bedell, Millennium, Akai, Doug Jones, SV, STI, Limcat, Anglin, Hill, JPL, Brazos, CCC, Cameron’s, Gan’s 9major vs 38SC vs Super Port, Popple, Hole, Vent, Jet, or no whatever you want to call it Full-size, Mid-size, Shorty or somewhere in between Optics? CMore check, but which mount, what angle Then Comp designs, holy crap comp designs! I’m not even making a short list Then the massive price and quality variations on the used market were overwhelming. I looked at several used open builds that people claimed only had 5,000 rounds through them. Then you’d look at the comp erosion and lack of rifling. You want how much? $4,200??? So, then I started looking at the new build market. Made a couple phone calls to a couple well known builders, who gave me completely different and conflicting information as to what the perfect setup is. During this process I was in talks with Dave Pruitt who I shoot with at local matches and knew his work was top notch. Problem is that I know me, as I know I can be extremely difficult and hard to please. The shooting community in Central FL is large, but connected and I didn’t want to mix business and pleasure. Finally, Dave told me to just pick one, pick something, and start shooting it. Then I threw the Glock in the safe and hit the used market again. This time I came across a deal on a limited gun I couldn’t pass up. So, I bought it and decided to put open on hold. Problem was that I didn’t put open on hold. The more matches I shot, the more I wanted an open blaster. So I kept borrowing different shooter’s guns for testing and evaluating to help figure out what I wanted in an open build. I liked them all and wanted them all, so I still wasn’t any closer to a decision. Then I came along an open blaster, which was an older Dave Pruitt build(Yeah, I know), but in good condition for a very good price. I asked the guy if he would hold the gun and he agreed. So, I slapped my limited gun on Enos forum where it sold in 5 minutes. Then I bought myself an open blaster. I now had a gun that Dave Pruitt built and I was sure I had gotten the deal of the century. Then I fired it and then I hated it. I fired it some more and then it started to jam on me. I thought what have I done and what have I bought? Mad as mad can be, I called the guy I bought the gun from who was willing to help me out and made several suggestions to me on ammo and magazines. Not wanting to give up just yet, I decided to give Dave Pruitt a call. I informed him I bought one of his old guns and described it to him. He wanted to have a look to try to figure out what the issue was. After I dropped it off he informed me he built it in 1994. What? What do you mean you built it 1994? Pissed that I bought what I considered and out dated paperweight, I again called the guy I bought it from. He was sad to hear I wasn’t happy with the gun and would be happy to make arrangements to take the gun off my hands. I then called Dave and told him not to do anything I was going to sell the gun. It was at this point Dave used his Grand Master mind judo on me letting me know that the gun was totally fixable, but just needed some adjustments. He wanted a week to have it running flawless. I then voiced my concern about the design and how old it was. It was then explained to me that it didn’t matter that the gun was older. If I was a Master on the brink of becoming a GM sure it matters, but for a brand new shooter to open the gun was fine. He wanted me to just freaking shoot and then he will build me a custom as soon as I put in the time and am ready. A week later and with several tweaks and a few parts replaced I got the gun back. The thing just flat out runs now. It eats anything minor, major, JHP, CMJ, FMJ, 115, 124, or 125 it doesn’t matter. Just like Dave said it even feeds empty cases. He also helped me work up a proper load and the gun shoots fantastic. No not as flat as some of the newer guns Dave has built, but good enough for my skill level. I’ve now put 3,000 plus rounds without even a burp. In addition, I now have settled on a new build design as well and I am going to stick with Dave for it. He is going to build me an awesome hybrid… well I’ll just do a write up later this year after I am ready and it’s complete. For now, I am just going to shoot the crap out of what I have. By the way, I highly recommend Dave's custom work and training. So, if anyone else is considering open, but unsure. Just go for it! Pick a gun, get it running and just shoot it. Trying to come up with cheaper solutions or getting caught up in a gear race is expensive and extremely frustrating. When it comes to picking a builder make a few phone calls and pick who you feel the most comfortable with. There are many different theories and philosophies to which build is the best. In the end, I discovered it is going to be a long time before I am out running the gun. Having the flattest or fastest gun doesn’t really matter at my skill level. Right now I’m better off working on movement, mag changes, and transitions between targets. Split times are the furthest thing from my mind at the moment. I ran through the same course with a gun I had faster splits with. End result, I had the same time with both guns. It was pointed out to me that I was losing time by not shooting on the move and other movement related issues. I was able to cut my time in half just learning how to hit and escape shooting positions. So, my next point is that if you find yourself thinking your issues are from your equipment, stop! Don’t spend any more money thinking a *thumb rest [generic]*, better comp, better gun will help you. Instead pick up the phone call a local GM and get some training. So here it is, the 1994, updated in 2012 Dave Pruitt build. 38 super, Cone Comp, No Holes, Full-sized beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Great to hear! I'm looking forward to starting Open myself in a couple months. You make a good point - regardless of the gun you have to put in the time in training to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digby7 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 with this forum - its very common to completely overthink things. I think i spent 8 months hemming and hawwing over who to get a limited gun from. i learned alot during that period but when i finally ordered it and realized i had 4-5 months to wait, i just went and bought a sti steelmaster to shoot for the hell of it and loved it. the best advice i think is to just stop thinking for a bit, pick something and shoot the blue/chrome off it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Very nice, good to hear things are working! I think that what you experienced is pretty normal. There are so many components and subtleties to running a reliable gun that when a problem pops up the troubleshooting and problem resolution phase can be very frustrating, especially if you aren’t sure what is going on. I’m going through a little bit of this myself lately as I’ve exceeded the TBO on my mags and they have been giving me fits. But, I know my rig and know that I just need to make the time to tear them all down and rebuild them. Just the nature of the beast, and so it goes. Indeed, Dave is a very nice guy who is also a great shooter and pistol smith who has been there, done that, and knows of what he speaks. Listening to him is a good thing. Using a surfing analogy - it’s like having Kelly Slater as your board shaper! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Back when I was shooting, I just shot what I could afford to shoot the most. The sooner you transition away from the "shopping funbuzz" the better. Anything keeping you from matches shooting what you have? You were right! I was totally caught up in the shopping fun buzz looking back. Oops Edited January 31, 2012 by OperationHitFactor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Very nice, good to hear things are working! I think that what you experienced is pretty normal. There are so many components and subtleties to running a reliable gun that when a problem pops up the troubleshooting and problem resolution phase can be very frustrating, especially if you aren’t sure what is going on. I’m going through a little bit of this myself lately as I’ve exceeded the TBO on my mags and they have been giving me fits. But, I know my rig and know that I just need to make the time to tear them all down and rebuild them. Just the nature of the beast, and so it goes. Indeed, Dave is a very nice guy who is also a great shooter and pistol smith who has been there, done that, and knows of what he speaks. Listening to him is a good thing. Using a surfing analogy - it’s like having Kelly Slater as your board shaper! Great analogy, I don't think I would be any better at surfing even if Kelly Slater himself shaped my board. All my friends surf, I sink. Good luck with the mags. What is TBO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Time between overhaul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Right on. That sounds like a good fit for TBO Edited January 31, 2012 by OperationHitFactor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 TBO = Time Between Overhaul Thanks, the mags just need a little TLC - heck, they are old enough to drink! Good shooting to ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OperationHitFactor Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) TBO = Time Between Overhaul Thanks, the mags just need a little TLC - heck, they are old enough to drink! Good shooting to ya! Good shooting to you too. I'm sure we will cross paths, I'm the bald guy with a beard about 30 years old. Pretty much the only guy without a sponsor on the shirt shooting open around these parts. Edited January 31, 2012 by OperationHitFactor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lior Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Edited to add: have bought one of these. Will report once I can take possession and feed it a little: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctay Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Edited to add: have bought one of these. Will report once I can take possession and feed it a little You didn't buy that gun you Lior... Couldn't resist... I think I need more sleep... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lior Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 That's okay ctay - like most easy going people I enjoy being laughed at once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theactionshooter Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Edited to add: have bought one of these. Will report once I can take possession and feed it a little: @Lior - Is that a Bul frame on the picture, Awesome gun! Edited February 1, 2012 by theactionshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmwphoto Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I have really enjoyed this read. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EduardoM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 that gun is just beatiful , timeless classic design and most important it runs , my open gun is going to look pretty much like yours , congrats and im glad everything worked out at the end , i think you did the right thing by having a GM with tons of experience overhalu your pistol and your criteria at the beginning of your process was right on when buying something built by a professional shooter that knows what it takes , congrats that gun looks brand new , enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDunn Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 i agree with shooting were you want to shoot. if you really like the open guns, then shoot open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lior Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Have started shooting with Bul M5 in practice. Having a red dot frees my mind up a bit for transitions, trigger work, etc., but this particular specimen does not seem to be reliable enough for match use, even after attention from Bul's armorer. Will continue to compete in Production while training Open and report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drysideshooter Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading this thread, or how educational it has been. Thanks for taking the time to write it and update it. I got all confused when wanting an open gun and experienced the same frustration that you did. One day Scott Springer sends me a message that he saw a Rusty Kidd built open gun for sale by Bobby at Freedom Gun Works. I contact Bobby and we make a deal right away. It had extremely low round count and when Scott looked at it he said it was built by a master. The thing has never failed to go bang and has been flawless. I had to replace the Cmore diode and that's been it. It too isn't the latest and greatest design, but for where I'm act skill wise it's way more than adequate and I really enjoy the gun. Fast forward and my 12 year old son who has been shooting USPSA production and also centerfire Steel Challenge along with rimfire rifle optic and handgun optic decides he wants to try open. Again all of the same shopping buzz and frustration, talking with a ton of people, etc. Finally we decided that he already had a great 9mm XDm that had been massaged quite a bit and we are putting a Springer comp on it with a Storm Lake threaded barrel, a Pistol Gear magwell and some 140 and 170 mag kits, and topped with a Deltapoint. He plans to shoot Open 9 minor for a while and concentrate on accuracy and see how he likes it. After that we will decide which way to go for a 38SC gun for him. I can promise that I will keep this thread in mind and not go crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerJockey Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 All things considered I would say limited, it will help you with everything and almost everything you learn is transferable to every other division besides revolver reloads and open sight pictures. Go to open after you get a really good feel for limited and the experience will serve you well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) Open is definately not a no skill division. I have found its a blast but harder. You have to be shooting at least 15% faster with an open gun or your already behind the power curve. Everything has to be perfect in open when it comes to foot work and your attack on the stage. Pat Edited September 29, 2012 by Alaskapopo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriver71 Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) Dude I would go with single stack. You'll learn all the basics well. Which will translate to open, limited or whatever discipline you choose. In single stack you'll invest little in the beginning then work your way up. Although open sure is fun! You reload more in SS and will have a chance to slowly learn the footwork necessary for open shooting. Take your time and learn correct shooting. The temptation in open is to just shoot fast because everyone else is. I shot SS first with a Kimber Raptor II. Little investment. Maybe $1300 bucks. Edited September 29, 2012 by jetdriver71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriver71 Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Open is definately not a no skill division. I have found its a blast but harder. You have to be shooting at least 15% fast with an open gun or your already behind the power curve. Everything has to be perfect in open when it comes to foot work and your attack on the stage. Pat True that my friend. I found that out real quick in open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 Dude I would go with single stack. You'll learn all the basics well. Which will translate to open, limited or whatever discipline you choose. In single stack you'll invest little in the beginning then work your way up. Although open sure is fun! When I started shooting there was no single stack so I shot limited 10 with my duty gun at the time (single stack 1911) I used 10 round Wilson mags. When I shot IDPA I just used the 8 rounders. I did not move up to limited until I got into three gun and knew I needed a high cap pistol. Then later went open after getting a Sagia. I like shooting all the divisons. I agree people shoot just shoot with what they have at first and then buy new guns later. Production is not a bad place to start either or limited 10 or limited depending on the blaster you already own. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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