DQ Offenses?

[coframer]

So what is the ruling on shooter, shooting a prop within two yrds of himself? Is it considered unsafe gun handling even if the shooter was not actually handling the gun in an unsafe manner? Is it an automatic DQ from the entire match or just that stage? Can the MD over-ride the Safety officer that called for a DQ and allow the shooter to continue with the match?

[GSWEAR]

Be hard to say without knowing the situation but I don't know of anything in the rulebook regaurding DQ's for shooting range props, would think if there were to be DQ's or PE's giving for shooting range props it would be addressed in the COF or shooters meeting.

And yes the MD has the final say and can over ride the SO and a DQ is for the match.

Greg

Edited October 16, 2011 by GSWEAR

[LT45]

oops..

Edited October 16, 2011 by LT45

[Merlin Orr]

First - Tell us the Whole story......

I have seen a CoF where the shooting was done over the hood of a vehicle and it was stated that shooting the vehicle was a match DQ.

Per the rule book I see nothing that specifically addresses shooting a prop as a DQ.

[CSEMARTIN]

shooting a prop ........................even if the shooter was not actually handling the gun in an unsafe manner

I think I see your point, but I have a hard time calling someone a "safe" gun handler after they've shot a prop. Clearly, they didn't mean to do it, right?

There is no such thing as a stage DQ. You get a DQ, you pack up your gear and watch.

The Match Director at an IDPA match can do whatever they please.

[waktasz]

I've shot props(walls) more than a couple of times and I consider myself a very safe gun handler.

Anyway...it would help to know the whole situation. The first post doesn't give us much to go on.

[smokshwn]

I've shot props(walls) more than a couple of times and I consider myself a very safe gun handler.

Anyway...it would help to know the whole situation. The first post doesn't give us much to go on.

This is where the whole story is necessary. Are we talking hitting the edge of a window/port on a tight target or are we talking blasting a whole in a wall/prop while moving between positions.

The former may easily still be considered safe gun handling and poor marksmanship while the latter can hardly be called safe.

[fastarget]

Not sure exactly what happened since I was SO in the bay next door. This occured during a carbine only DMG match. Apparently two shooters shot the prop/cover/wall they were behind. The SO deemed it unsafe , and requested the acting MD to rule on it due to the rule below and the warnings issued during the match meeting.

F. A premature shot: in the holster; striking behind (up range

of) the firing line; into the ground downrange closer to the

firing line than two yards; or over a berm.

two weeks previously a CDP shooter fired into a plastic barrel he was to use for cover and everyone ducked while watching the bullet spin inside the plastic barrel......so during match meetings they have been mentioning that care should be taken not to shoot your cover, since spinning bullets, flying wood splinters and debris can be a hazard, and that would be considered improper gun handling whether incidental/premature or other.

Two shooters had this occur yesterday and the acting MD decided to DQ them. By the time the story got to me, I called the club MD who was present but Ill, we discussed it and then he went and spoke to the acting MD. My argument was, it was accidental during a cof, the shooters were not rattled since behind the carbine they did not realize it even happened, and allowing them to shoot the remaining COFs would be a way to have them enjoy their day and not create hard feelings. SO the club MD allowed them to continue (first time carbine match is put on and all were learning the ins and outs), but they were DQ for that stage because they should have been more aware of their surroundings and safety was everyones responsibility.

[waktasz]

I'm still not clear on the situation and whether or not the shooters had an AD into a wall, or just happened to shoot a wall while actively engaging targets.

Here's my opinion...if you shoot a barrel or wall or the ground while you are moving into a shooting position and engaging a target, DQ.

If you are behind cover and ACTUALLY aiming at targets and happen to hit a barrel or wall, that is not a DQ.

[coframer]

I'm still not clear on the situation and whether or not the shooters had an AD into a wall, or just happened to shoot a wall while actively engaging targets.

Here's my opinion...if you shoot a barrel or wall or the ground while you are moving into a shooting position and engaging a target, DQ.

If you are behind cover and ACTUALLY aiming at targets and happen to hit a barrel or wall, that is not a DQ.

How is that not a DQ? If the barrel or wall is within two yrds of the shooter and is it by the shooter, how would that not be a DQ?

[fastarget]

I'm still not clear on the situation and whether or not the shooters had an AD into a wall, or just happened to shoot a wall while actively engaging targets.

Here's my opinion...if you shoot a barrel or wall or the ground while you are moving into a shooting position and engaging a target, DQ.

If you are behind cover and ACTUALLY aiming at targets and happen to hit a barrel or wall, that is not a DQ.

They were behind cover engaging targets, awareness still applies, if that would have been a steel barrel or a solid wall they may or others be injured. I must agree with my friend coframer on this one. It should be a DQ, now whether you DQ them for the match and not allow them to shoot, or just DQ the stage (match is a throwaway for them anyway) I am not sure.

[coframer]

SO what I'm basically asking is if you shoot a prop/barrel/the ground within two yards of yourself while shooting is that considered a DQ per IDPA rules.

[waktasz]

I'm still not clear on the situation and whether or not the shooters had an AD into a wall, or just happened to shoot a wall while actively engaging targets.

Here's my opinion...if you shoot a barrel or wall or the ground while you are moving into a shooting position and engaging a target, DQ.

If you are behind cover and ACTUALLY aiming at targets and happen to hit a barrel or wall, that is not a DQ.

How is that not a DQ? If the barrel or wall is within two yrds of the shooter and is it by the shooter, how would that not be a DQ?

Because the rules don't say it is, and because it's not unsafe gun handling to send a few wood chips flying now and again.

Not IDPA, but same thing. I plug the no-shoot here at the 8 or 9 second mark(the no shoot was just used because they ran out of wall). If it had been a wall, it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Tape over the hole in the wood and carry on.

Edited October 16, 2011 by waktasz

[waktasz]

SO what I'm basically asking is if you shoot a prop/barrel/the ground within two yards of yourself while shooting is that considered a DQ per IDPA rules.

The ground is a different issue. That is laid out in the rules and is clearly an AD. Any AD into anything is a DQ whether it's a prop or a wall or whatever.

Your question seems to be whether shooting a wall is a DQ in and of itself and I say no. Trying to shoot a tight shot around a wall and hitting the wall is not a DQable offense.

[coframer]

SO what I'm basically asking is if you shoot a prop/barrel/the ground within two yards of yourself while shooting is that considered a DQ per IDPA rules.

The ground is a different issue. That is laid out in the rules and is clearly an AD. Any AD into anything is a DQ whether it's a prop or a wall or whatever.

Your question seems to be whether shooting a wall is a DQ in and of itself and I say no. Trying to shoot a tight shot around a wall and hitting the wall is not a DQable offense.

So shooting around a wall trying to make a tight shot, the wall is say only a foot away from the muzzel, you shoot the wall, that's not DQ'able?

[Loves2Shoot]

How do you score a stage DQ? Do you mean DQ for the match but they can shoot the other stages?

[coframer]

How do you score a stage DQ? Do you mean DQ for the match but they can shoot the other stages?

My guess it would be scored like a DNF for the stage. The shooters were only DQ'ed from the specific stage but shot the remainder of the match for score.

[GSWEAR]

SO what I'm basically asking is if you shoot a prop/barrel/the ground within two yards of yourself while shooting is that considered a DQ per IDPA rules.

No, there is nothing in the rule book about shooting stage props. The two yards is only in reference to an AD hitting the ground down range of you.

Greg

[GSWEAR]

How do you score a stage DQ? Do you mean DQ for the match but they can shoot the other stages?

My guess it would be scored like a DNF for the stage. The shooters were only DQ'ed from the specific stage but shot the remainder of the match for score.

If you are trying to say they did something unsafe it's a DQ not a DNF and they are done for the match.

Greg

[Classic_jon]

SO what I'm basically asking is if you shoot a prop/barrel/the ground within two yards of yourself while shooting is that considered a DQ per IDPA rules.

The ground is a different issue. That is laid out in the rules and is clearly an AD. Any AD into anything is a DQ whether it's a prop or a wall or whatever.

Your question seems to be whether shooting a wall is a DQ in and of itself and I say no. Trying to shoot a tight shot around a wall and hitting the wall is not a DQable offense.

So shooting around a wall trying to make a tight shot, the wall is say only a foot away from the muzzel, you shoot the wall, that's not DQ'able?

coframer:

The reason you are getting the answers you are getting is that you are asking *two* separate DQ questions. Question 1) is about shooting the GROUND, and 2) is about shooting a PROP. They are totally different situations.

As a friend of mine always says in these situations, "read the rulebook"

Section S1:

F. A premature shot: in the holster; striking behind (up range

of) the firing line; into the ground downrange closer to the

firing line than two yards; or over a berm.

Note the words "GROUND" and "OVER the BERM." Nowhere in there does it say "prop"

Now, that being said, at the top of that section it says

"S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate

disqualification from the entire match.

Examples (but not limited to):

A. Endangering any person, including yourself."

That leaves much of it open to the MD to determine if it was "unsafe" as a catch all depending on the stage design. At that point a LOT of it comes down to designing a safe stage. You can be as safe a shooter as possible, but if the stage is unsafe, has wild muzzle swings possible, or has a safety officer trap, then it needs to be changed or removed from the match.

To answer your question fully requires an image of the stage design, and *exactly* what happened to be able to make the SUBJECTIVE call based on "A. Endangering any person, including yourself."

[fastarget]

The props in question were the cover an inch away from the muzzle.........

CJ sited the correct rules in the book, which is F, the only thing left at the time was to look at S 1, the case of unsafe handling, pretty gray area.

In once sited incident of a young man shooting cdp, he was shooting a target 4 rounds, and shot the barrel he was using for cover.

The second incident, the shooters were utilizing carbines with optics........so a tight shot with an optic from behind cover.........hmmmm......the SO called it ......but I am willing to bet they did not even realize that happened while negotiating the stage and may need to rethink their technique with a rifle. So what is correct, not being there, I would have to go with the SOs call.

Edited October 17, 2011 by fastarget

[GSWEAR]

I'm sure I'm a little slow and / or very possibly missing something but on incident:

#1 I don't see shooting a barrel as a DQ-able offense and on,

#2 if it was a barrel or wood I don't see a DQ either, if the edge of cover was metal or somthing else hard it shouldn't have been used in a stage and if it was should have been addressed to give extra caution to in the walk thru.

If these cover items were wood or plastic but a DQ was going to be giving for shooting them it should have been addressed in the shooters meeting and in the COF and walk thru.

Like I said these are just my opinions and I may have missed something or may not be seeing the whole picture?

Greg

[fastarget]

I'm sure I'm a little slow and / or very possibly missing something but on incident:

#1 I don't see shooting a barrel as a DQ-able offense and on,

#2 if it was a barrel or wood I don't see a DQ either, if the edge of cover was metal or somthing else hard it shouldn't have been used in a stage and if it was should have been addressed to give extra caution to in the walk thru.

If these cover items were wood or plastic but a DQ was going to be giving for shooting them it should have been addressed in the shooters meeting and in the COF and walk thru.

Like I said these are just my opinions and I may have missed something or may not be seeing the whole picture?

Greg

MD was specific in saying in the meeting "any shot within 10 ft of the shooter is a DQ", they were looking for tight safety being their first carbine match.

So what do you do if the shooter cites the rule book regarding the call of shooting the wood....

Edited October 17, 2011 by fastarget

[sirveyr]

Ground = DQ (Rule supports DQ)

Prop = No DQ (No rule to support DQ)

[jmorris]

It is common for shooters with optics on carbines when "using cover" to hit what is used for cover unless they have the rifles muzzle beyond said cover. Your dot is on the target the barrel is behind cover.