Skydiver Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 If I replace the hammer on my Production gun with an OEM hammer, am I allowed to modify the hammer hooks in the process of doing a trigger job? The relevant rules are Appendix D4 21 and 21.6. Slightly related is 21.1. 21. Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines) Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause or published interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Production use and shall move the shooter to Open Division. 21.6 Exchange of minor EXTERNAL components Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, extractors and ejectors MAYbe replaced with OEM or aftermarket parts. Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OEM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OEM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. 21.1 Internal throating and polishing to improve accuracy, reliability and function. Because internal modifications are currently very difficult to enforce, NROI now deems that this clause means “INTERNAL modifications which do NOT conflict with other clauses of this appendix are NOW ALLOWED. Special Notes/Clarifications: • See 21.3 for specifics with regard to slides. • See 21.4 for specifics with regard to barrels. • ALLfactory safety mechanisms, whether internal or external, must remain functional. • See 22.2 for specifics on external safeties. • Per existing NROI ruling, any “internal” modifications which result in a visible change to the external appearance of the gun when it is in battery REMAIN PROHIBITED unless specifically allowed by the plain language herein. Unlike 21.5 which uses the phrase "modified or replaced" with regards to internal parts, 21.6 only uses the word "replace" in it's discussion of external parts. A corollary question for CZ owners: some replacement slide stops have burrs or excess bluing on the pin, did you you "modify" the slide stop to for a better fit? Or are you using 21.1's "internal polishing" to describe the modification? Does this "conflict with other clauses of this appendix"? If it doesn't conflict, can I "polish" the hammer hooks aggressively into shape and use 21.1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 The modification wouldn't be visible from the outside so it would be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 How would anyone know? Is there a list of specs for hammer hooks? Some times it is better to not ask the question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Are you asking if you can alter the hammer so when decocked it will require less trigger travel to fire in DA mode? As I see the rules it may or may not be legal, depending on the definition of "in battery". I don't know if this means hammer cocked, decocked, or uncocked. I would not make this modification without consulting NROI. My personal opinion is that the BOD should clarify this, by giving us a clear definition of "in battery", or changing item 21.1 • Per existing NROI ruling, any “internal” modifica- tions which result in a visible change to the external appearance of the gun when it is in battery REMAIN PROHIBITED unless specifically allowed by the plain language herein. to • Per existing NROI ruling, any “internal” modifica- tions which result in a visible change to the external appearance of the gun when it is in ready condition per 8.1 REMAIN PROHIBITED unless specifically allowed by the plain language herein. Edited October 16, 2011 by wide45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'm asking asking if I can alter the hammer so that when cocked in SA mode, it will require less trigger pressure to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'm asking asking if I can alter the hammer so that when cocked in SA mode, it will require less trigger pressure to fire. Yes, you may modify the trigger hooks. eerw can shed a lot more light than I can ever hope to on my following statement but, to the best of my knowledge, this is a common procedure when doing a trigger job on CZ pistols. As long as the modification is internal and your gunsmith is not disabling any firearm safeties, it is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) Just stirring pot here: a dot hidden inside the magwell hidden by a seated magazine is not considered internal, but the visible hammer hooks is internal? Seriously, though, I can see how the hammer hooks are considered internal considering the following from 21.5: • Guide rods are considered an "internal part" and may be modified and/or replaced with OEM or aftermarket guide rods even though part of the guide rod is externally visible when the gun is in battery. Note that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and relevant. The problem, though 21 states that there must be an explicit rule I can point to authorizing the modification. I doubt that I can point to 21.5, and say that since guide rods are considered internal, the hammer is also considered internal. I think that wide45 may unto something in post #4 about further clarification needed. Edited October 17, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 ...the visible hammer hooks is internal? I have the feeling we are talking about different parts of the trigger. The hammer hooks are internal and therefore not visible unless the pistol is disassembled. Are you by any chance referring to the hammer spur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 ...the visible hammer hooks is internal? I have the feeling we are talking about different parts of the trigger. The hammer hooks are internal and therefore not visible unless the pistol is disassembled. Are you by any chance referring to the hammer spur? I'm quite sure these parts I've circled in red in my picture of my CZ are called hammer hooks. (Or at least that's what I've been told they are called when they told me to be very careful when stoning them on 1911-style guns.) If they are not called hammer hooks, please forgive me, but this is the part that I want to modify on a OEM hammer. As you can see, they are clearly visible with the gun in battery in Single Action mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yeap, that's the hammer hooks and yes, they can be stoned to improve their angle of engagement and reduce your pistol's trigger pull weight. Any modification made to these would still be considered internal. On a separate note... Be judicious when removing material off of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Any modification made to these would still be considered internal. Which rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think you should send an e-mail to amidon. Then we will have some confusing information that we can argue about for 10 pages, with half of the DRL's claiming that all CZ's being used in competition today are illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeInNePa Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I think you should send an e-mail to amidon. Then we will have some confusing information that we can argue about for 10 pages, with half of the DRL's claiming that all CZ's being used in competition today are illegal. I second the motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I think you should send an e-mail to amidon. Then we will have some confusing information that we can argue about for 10 pages, with half of the DRL's claiming that all CZ's being used in competition today are illegal. Cynic. BTW, I agree with the sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 LOL! I'm recalling now parts of the reason why I changed over to L10 instead of continuing to shoot Production. Anyway, I'm composing email to Amidon to see what his "opinion" on the matter is. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that he'll have a clear consistent answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If you get my Shadow outlawed for production I will be very unhappy. I'm sure I'll be one of many shooters that will be ... Well, I can't really complete that sentiment on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If USPSA decides that doing a trigger job on a CZ makes it illegal for production, i might have to spend my weekends wearing a vest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 After Make ready on a CZ, when you lower the hammer, where are the hooks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If USPSA decides that doing a trigger job on a CZ makes it illegal for production, i might have to spend my weekends wearing a vest. Don't make me come over there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinSC Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If USPSA decides that doing a trigger job on a CZ makes it illegal for production, i might have to spend my weekends wearing a vest. No vest for me. I'll have to take up golf again. And I suck at Golf. At least I'm starting to show promise in this sport. Please don't make me go back to losing small white dimpled balls that cost more than ammo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 It's been over 48 hours and I've not heard back from Amidon, yet. Keep those vests and golf clubs in the closet for now. As for me, I'll pick up two hammers and sears (for a Tanfoglio rather than a CZ). One hammer paired with the sear will stay stock, and another pair will get the hammer hooks "polished aggressively". It may even got polished so aggressively that part of the hammer spur may fall off as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) In John's classic sphinx-like response: "External modifications are restricted to those listed in the rules, it is considered external if the part is visible when the handgun is in battery." As a footnote, though. John did say that there will be a BOD meeting in December where they may discuss the Production division. Make your reps know your sentiments about the topic is my suggestion. Edited October 27, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now