mcoliver Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 The COF description states something like "...steel must fall to score..." You come into the last position that consists of a plate rack. Shoot the plates, see them fall (coz I still suck at shot-calling ). However, the way the plate was hinged, a just-right shot caused enough momentum to actually make the plate fall and bounce back up. Do the rules have anything to say about this? Is the plate considered to have fallen and scored as a hit? I tried to search the rules, but my head ached just reading through one page. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 However, the way the plate was hinged, a just-right shot caused enough momentum to actually make the plate fall and bounce back up. Do the rules have anything to say about this? Is the plate considered to have fallen and scored as a hit? Not sure if I remember the rules addressing anything like this (and don't have a rulebook at work). However, here is my take.... Steel must fall to score. If the RO or ARO saw the steel fall, then it scored whether it bounced back up or not. At least that is the way I would call this one. Is this hypothetical, or did this REALLY happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I have personally experienced this and it's a nightmare. I was the shooter (at a shotgun match). It was a low aperture with 4 metal targets to be shot. The RO was blind to the targets but a friend in the same squad (a qualified RM but not officiating on the day) could see the targets. I was convinced I had 4 good hits but just as I'm about to move on I noticed one standing target. I shot it again but it disturbed my thought plan because I'm thinking that the target was definitely gone, I knew I'd hit it square (and close) so how could it still be there. Mike told me later he saw it bounce back up. I discovered later on that there had been a number of problems on the stage with targets of the same design bouncing back up. The big problem is the disturbance factor to the shooter and technically it's range equipment failure even if the RO could call the targets as hit. As an RO, if I saw the competitor react to the bouncing target or even shoot it again I'd order a re-shoot. If they had a blinding run and seemed unperturbed I would offer a reshoot. Then the problem needs to be fixed, and fast. In my case the targets were all at ground level and the simple solution would have been to dump some earth or sand over the base to stop the metal on metal bounce. Sadly this wasn't a good match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 The big problem is the disturbance factor to the shooter and technically it's range equipment failure even if the RO could call the targets as hit.As an RO, if I saw the competitor react the the bouncing target or even shoot it again I'd order a re-shoot. If they had a blinding run and seemed unperturbed I would offer a reshoot. Then the problem needs to be fixed, and fast. Neil, wow, calling this one REF, is a surprise. After all the target did operate correctly, it just bounced back up. As for the disturbance factor though, that is a great point, and I hadn't even thought of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Brian In my case it could have been very costly because if I hadn't shot it again then the RO would have had no option but to score the target as a miss. With the smoke it was a very close thing indeed that I saw it in time and if I'd ended up with a miss penalty I would have been a very unhappy bunny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 sounds like range prop failure with a mandatory reshoot.falling targets fall and dont get back up. ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 We went around on this last year after I hit a plate and it didn't fall. The new rules have a slight change in that the RO can call REF if he believes it was hit. If the RO didn't see it and it wasn't painted, you don't have much leverage however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 happens all the time using my 178 pf loads. the plate falls real hard and bounces right back. this is during practice and have not encountered it in a match. ill ask them to fix the prop ill be forced to use my anemic loads 100 pf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Hi guys, Neil is correct - this is definitely a case of Range Equipment Failure, because the plate failed to operate as intended: 4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes, but is not limited to, the displacement of paper targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers. 4.6.2 A competitor who is unable to complete a course of fire due to range equipment failure, or if a metal or moving target was not reset prior to his attempt at a course of fire, must be required to reshoot the course of fire after corrective actions have been taken. If you want to see some hilarious, but nonetheless frustrating "bouncers", try shooting at synthetic (e.g. "Newbold" style) plates at an indoor range with 45ACP ball ammo. Shred: I forget your case from last year but, if the plate didn't fall at all, then Rule 4.3.1.6 applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Plates can bounce back into the upright position very easily if the rope used to reset them doesn't let the counterweight fall back into to place because it's stuck on the ground or something. I think if it goes down, it has been down enough to score, then the situation should be remedied for the following shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 This happened to me Saturday on a practice stage.... The plate stand was nearly flush with the berm. My shot knocked the plate off the stand and back into the berm. From beyond ten yards, it appeared it was still up. (If you looked closely you could see it was a few inches back of the stand and angled back, not perfectly vertical as it would be on the stand.) But I shot it off the stand and re-shot it on the berm without ever figuring this out. REF or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I think if it goes down, it has been down enough to score, then the situation should be remedied for the following shooters. The problem, my dear horny one, is that if we score "bounced" plates because they did fall down, albeit temporarily, we leave ourselves open to claims by competitors who might say "I shot it down, but it bounced up again", even when it didn't. This is not necessarily blatant cheating - it could be what the competitor honestly believes happened. If the plate doesn't stay down, the only equitable way to deal with the situation is to order a reshoot. Moreover, and far more importantly, it's better to obviate the problem in the first place, and the best way to do that is don't use hinged plates (or poppers, for that matter). Metal targets are far more reliable when they stand freely in a "V" channel, because this totally eliminates the possibility of "bouncing". When they're hit, they fall on the floor without impediment. I've used such metal targets in Hong Kong for four years without a single case of REF or even a calibration request. Eric: Yes Sir, your case is also REF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 If the plate doesn't stay down, the only equitable way to deal with the situation is to order a reshoot. Hmmm, learn something new every day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Blah, blah ... okay, in a big match with money and prizes on the line, I can see why you'd need to deal with it in a systematic way. But at club matches, if half of the squad sees it go down and come back up, that should be good enough for anyone other than the biggest rangea**es around. Especially when it's hot outside and I don't feel like waiting for another reshoot over something that can be solved with minute amount of common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 Rhino...I always have to ask when somebody posts about club matches vs. "big" matches (sorry)... What other local rules do you use??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 What other local rules do you use??? "local rules" Although, I must admit that if several of us saw it go down, I sure think I am with Joey da Score on this one. OTOH, if the shooter complained about the distraction, then I would give the reshoot per my learning from Master Darth.... Uncle Vinny will now probably spank me for that comment. But then again, Uncle Vinny has not yet met me...... Hmmm, it might be a challenge for him to put me over his knee..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 - My "local rules" comment is aimed at the mindset that there is a difference in what should be done at a club match as opposed to a Major. At what point do we use the whole book...or just the parts we like? - What "half the squad" sees means nothing. The peanut gallery doesn't get to "vote". - A reshoot for complaining??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 I hear ya.... that's why I await my spanking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted May 19, 2004 Author Share Posted May 19, 2004 Is this hypothetical, or did this REALLY happen? The match thing was hypothetical but I kept experiencing it on our practice plate racks so I got curious. Besides, nothing sucks more than getting a good run to show off to your buddies only to find out some plates are still standing. Thanks a lot for the insights guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 What other local rules do you use??? Flex, it's Rhino. Jungle Rules apply BDH, I don't do the spanking personally - I delegate. The next time you see Denise approaching you with a cricket bat ............. RUN LIKE HELL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Jungle rules? That sounds like logic. What in the world are we coming to??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 BDH, I don't do the spanking personally - I delegate. The next time you see Denise approaching you with a cricket bat ............. RUN LIKE HELL Denise doesn't need a cricket bat.... but that's another story, and I don't think we need to go into it THAT story in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 Is this hypothetical, or did this REALLY happen? Happened to a large number of people at a recent match with a hinged steel plate. In most cases, with major shooters, the plate slammed down and bounced right back up. It was easy to tell who was watching the steel fall, and who was calling shots (or maybe listening) The ARO was looking for the plate to fall and scoring it if it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 The ARO was looking for the plate to fall and scoring it if it did. Whoa! Common sense in action! We need an emoticon that allows me to shake my head. Clearly Mr. Hanna also has some of that common sense, that undefineable, unquantifiable quality that eludes so many people (including me some of the time), but makes life so much easier for those around him. Counting a plate that drops and pops upright afterwards as witnessed by someone like the assistant RO/scorekeeper or even a reliable individual in the squad isn't about slavish devotion to arbitrary rules, it's about doing what is obviously the right thing to do. The reason why I would choose to act differently at a local club match is because the results don't really matter. I'd be inclined to lean more toward the aforementioned slavish attention to the arbitrary rules when someone could win or lose money or fabulous prized based on such an event. I'm totally going to continue publish the "unofficial" combined results forever too, even if they take the feature away from EZWinscore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 19, 2004 Share Posted May 19, 2004 I'm totally going to continue publish the "unofficial" combined results forever too, even if they take the feature away from EZWinscore. Rhino, You're incorrigible. You're a rebel. You're purple. And you have ventilated trousers. I love you, man. Nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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