what would be the correct way to do this?

[98006]

I was shooting and I heard a pop instead of a bang. Slide did not cycle, so I stopped thinking that the gun had a squib. I understand my stopping myself,while to me was the correct thing to do to avoid blowing up my gun, but it was against the rules and scored as is.

On inspection, it was a sideways primer and could clearly be seen as such.

So what would be the correct way to handle this while I was shooting with the RO. Do they really expect a person to continue shooting with the chance of having a gun blow up?

[Pat Miles]

Your gun, your call.

The RO should have stopped you but some times they don't hear everything. You did the right thing. Yeah, you screwed the pooch on that stage but then if you would have gone on... well Mrs. Murphy might have jumped up and bit you right in the ass. Yes, I said MRS. Murphy!

Pat

[ima45dv8]

I was a victim of very similar (the exact same?) circumstances a few years ago at a Level II match. I heard the odd sound, but the RO didn't stop me so I stopped myself. I at first thought it was because maybe he was double-plugged, but that was not the case. He just didn't know what he was doing and shouldn't have been running shooters through the course of fire.

Mine was also a sideways primer.

[DonovanM]

Both of you guys should have been awarded a reshoot under 5.7.7.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

If something sounded like a squib, any competent RO should have stopped you. If you stop yourself, and upon discovery that it wasn't a squib ask for a reshoot and are denied one by the presiding RO, I'd appeal to the MD.

[98006]

I had asked for a reshoot,but was denied by the RO I should have made more of a fuss about it, but other groups were backing up so i let it go.

[ima45dv8]

Both of you guys should have been awarded a reshoot under 5.7.7.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a "squib" load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor's score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored "as shot", including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

If something sounded like a squib, any competent RO should have stopped you. If you stop yourself, and upon discovery that it wasn't a squib ask for a reshoot and are denied one by the presiding RO, I'd appeal to the MD.

I agree (except the appeal would have to be made to the Range Master, not the Match Director).

And as Paul Harvey would say, here's "The rest of the story..."

When the defective round went Pop instead of Bang, over half my squad was yelling "STOP!" (appropriately so). Once it was determined that I didn't have an obstructed bore I turned to the RO, who was casually watching the events and said, "You did say Stop, didn't you?" He replied, "No...why would I?" Knowing I was dealing with a knucklehead I quickly grabbed a new mag, reloaded and shot the rest of the CoF. Yeah, my time sucked and I was toast.

Knowing the Range Mater and the Match Director pretty well I sought out the RM a little later and told him the story. He was thoroughly embarrassed. He offered me a reshoot for the obvious reasons. Since it wasn't the first stage I had screwed up, and not wanting to put the volunteer RO's on the spot, I declined his offer. He promised to "have a talk with them".

That night at the after-match party I was talking to the CRO for that stage and he said they had one or two more squibs after mine. I said, "And you stopped them, right?" He replied, "No. Of course not. You see, when you've been doing this a bit longer you'll come to know that (and this is the GOOD part) as long as the slide closes and goes fully into battery, there's no chance of an obstructed bore. You see, a squib CAN'T push a bullet down the barrel far enough to let another round fully chamber. So as long as the slide closes all the way, it's OK to let them keep firing."

I SWEAR TO GOD THAT'S WHAT HE SAID!

I stood there dumb-struck trying to decide if he was serious and realized he WAS. Cliff (Walsh) was there and was one of many witnesses I drug over to convince this guy how wrong and dangerous he was. I spent 30 minutes beating his ears back with one story after another that proved he was wrong.

To this day I don't think he believed any of us...

[The Antichrome]

Both of you guys should have been awarded a reshoot under 5.7.7.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

If something sounded like a squib, any competent RO should have stopped you. If you stop yourself, and upon discovery that it wasn't a squib ask for a reshoot and are denied one by the presiding RO, I'd appeal to the MD.

The rules you've cited do not support the action you suggest. If you stop yourself, you do not get a reshoot. If you did, it would open up a HUGE can of worms. Every gamer having a bad run would stop himself, claim he thought he had a squib..."oh, no squib?, huh, go figure, ok I'll take a reshoot, thanks"

[DonovanM]

Holy crap. I think my argument would have been a little more concise: "Dude, it's in the rulebook. If you don't want to follow the rulebook, you have no business being an RO."

[The Antichrome]

Both of you guys should have been awarded a reshoot under 5.7.7.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a "squib" load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor's score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored "as shot", including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

If something sounded like a squib, any competent RO should have stopped you. If you stop yourself, and upon discovery that it wasn't a squib ask for a reshoot and are denied one by the presiding RO, I'd appeal to the MD.

I agree (except the appeal would have to be made to the Range Master, not the Match Director).

And as Paul Harvey would say, here's "The rest of the story..."

When the defective round went Pop instead of Bang, over half my squad was yelling "STOP!" (appropriately so). Once it was determined that I didn't have an obstructed bore I turned to the RO, who was casually watching the events and said, "You did say Stop, didn't you?" He replied, "No...why would I?" Knowing I was dealing with a knucklehead I quickly grabbed a new mag, reloaded and shot the rest of the CoF. Yeah, my time sucked and I was toast.

Knowing the Range Mater and the Match Director pretty well I sought out the RM a little later and told him the story. He was thoroughly embarrassed. He offered me a reshoot for the obvious reasons. Since it wasn't the first stage I had screwed up, and not wanting to put the volunteer RO's on the spot, I declined his offer. He promised to "have a talk with them".

That night at the after-match party I was talking to the CRO for that stage and he said they had one or two more squibs after mine. I said, "And you stopped them, right?" He replied, "No. Of course not. You see, when you've been doing this a bit longer you'll come to know that (and this is the GOOD part) as long as the slide closes and goes fully into battery, there's no chance of an obstructed bore. You see, a squib CAN'T push a bullet down the barrel far enough to let another round fully chamber. So as long as the slide closes all the way, it's OK to let them keep firing."

I SWEAR TO GOD THAT'S WHAT HE SAID!

I stood there dumb-struck trying to decide if he was serious and realized he WAS. Cliff (Walsh) was there and was one of many witnesses I drug over to convince this guy how wrong and dangerous he was. I spent 30 minutes beating his ears back with one story after another that proved he was wrong.

To this day I don't think he believed any of us...

...and sometimes an exception needs to be made due to a knucklehead who shouldnt be an RO...Thats why we have Range Masters...

Edited September 20, 2011 by The Antichrome

[DonovanM]

Both of you guys should have been awarded a reshoot under 5.7.7.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a

suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition

(e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he

deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe

condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition

and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

If something sounded like a squib, any competent RO should have stopped you. If you stop yourself, and upon discovery that it wasn't a squib ask for a reshoot and are denied one by the presiding RO, I'd appeal to the MD.

The rules you've cited do not support the action you suggest. If you stop yourself, you do not get a reshoot. If you did, it would open up a HUGE can of worms. Every gamer having a bad run would stop himself, claim he thought he had a squib..."oh, no squib?, huh, go figure, ok I'll take a reshoot, thanks"

Perhaps I should have said "both of you guys should have appealed the call under 5.7.7". The competitor won't be the only person who hears the pop instead of a bang. Half the squad was yelling stop in the previous example, and the RO knew it was a squib but didn't think it was a big deal. The RM can look at these things and decide for themselves.

Edited September 20, 2011 by DonovanM

[ima45dv8]

The rules you've cited do not support the action you suggest. If you stop yourself, you do not get a reshoot. If you did, it would open up a HUGE can of worms. Every gamer having a bad run would stop himself, claim he thought he had a squib..."oh, no squib?, huh, go figure, ok I'll take a reshoot, thanks"

And that's why I reloaded and got to work as soon as I realized the RO was clueless. If he had thought through the rules he would have offered a reshoot based on 6 people screaming STOP!! while I was shooting. I quickly realized he didn't know what he was doing and carried on so we could sort it out later (usually a good idea).

Holy crap. I think my argument would have been a little more concise: "Dude, it's in the rulebook. If you don't want to follow the rulebook, you have no business being an RO."

I totally agree he had no business being an RO. There's a strong liklihood he'll never be one for me. And to put a fine point on it, he and his CRO are a major part of why I won't agree to be Range Master at an event if I don't have input on who's working for me. I'll definitely use people who are still climbing the experience ladder, but I won't have them in charge of a stage as CRO. The CRO is the person I'm looking to, to correct training issues like this in the real-world crucible of a major match.

...and sometimes an exception needs to be made due to a knucklehead who shouldnt be an RO...

When I spoke to the RM and he said he'd have a talk with them, I believed and still believe he did exactly that. His chagrin was palpable and I felt bad even witnessing his embarrassment. After my visit with the CRO later that night I also believe he blew the RM off because the RM obviously didn't understand the dynamics of a squib as well as this (alleged and misappointed) CRO.

[JThompson]

I had asked for a reshoot,but was denied by the RO I should have made more of a fuss about it, but other groups were backing up so i let it go.

No you shouldn't have... the right call was made. Two criteria have to be met for you to get a reshoot. The first is an RO on the stage has to stop you and the second is that the gun must be safe to continue. (No Squib)

Now on the other hand... if the whole squad is yelling stop and you do stop. I can not see any self respecting RM not giving you a reshoot if the gun proves to be clear.

JT

[ima45dv8]

Now on the other hand... if the whole squad is yelling stop and you do stop. I can not see any self respecting RM not giving you a reshoot if the gun proves to be clear.

JT

And that was the exact offer that was made to me (I know, you were responding to someone else). My reasons for declining his proper offer are stated above.

[sperman]

Let me offer the flip side to this story.

I was working the GA state match a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't on the timer, but I was staying close to the shooter and RO to be the second set of eyes on the stage. On about his 5th shot, the gun malfunctioned, the shooter racked the slide and pulled the trigger again. I couldn't tell what happened. I was double plugged and neither the shooter nor the RO on the timer reacted like it was anything other than a mis-feed. After the 2nd shot, the gun was completely locked up, and it started to become clear that the 1st shot was a squib. I'm still not sure I saw enough evidence to yell "Stop" but I feel horrible that the guy blew up his gun on my stage. If I (or the shooter) ever have any doubt the barrel is clear, I'll gladly stop them, offer a re-shoot (if warranted) and let the chips fall where they may.

He was shooting minor PF, so their was no outward damage or bodily injury. I'm sure the barrel was junk, possibly the slide also.

[bbbean]

That night at the after-match party I was talking to the CRO for that stage and he said they had one or two more squibs after mine. I said, "And you stopped them, right?" He replied, "No. Of course not. You see, when you've been doing this a bit longer you'll come to know that (and this is the GOOD part) as long as the slide closes and goes fully into battery, there's no chance of an obstructed bore. You see, a squib CAN'T push a bullet down the barrel far enough to let another round fully chamber. So as long as the slide closes all the way, it's OK to let them keep firing."

I've run into this particular myth before, and have found that the adherents are absolutely unwilling to accept pictures and stories of split barrels, bullets hanging at the muzzle, or other proof that squib rounds can, in fact, lodge deep enough in the barrel to allow the next round to load.

BB

[bbbean]

Now on the other hand... if the whole squad is yelling stop and you do stop. I can not see any self respecting RM not giving you a reshoot if the gun proves to be clear.

JT

Sounds like interference to me. Reshoot per 8.6.4.

BB

[ima45dv8]

Let me offer the flip side to this story.

I was working the GA state match a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't on the timer, but I was staying close to the shooter and RO to be the second set of eyes on the stage. On about his 5th shot, the gun malfunctioned, the shooter racked the slide and pulled the trigger again. I couldn't tell what happened. I was double plugged and neither the shooter nor the RO on the timer reacted like it was anything other than a mis-feed. After the 2nd shot, the gun was completely locked up, and it started to become clear that the 1st shot was a squib. I'm still not sure I saw enough evidence to yell "Stop" but I feel horrible that the guy blew up his gun on my stage. If I (or the shooter) ever have any doubt the barrel is clear, I'll gladly stop them, offer a re-shoot (if warranted) and let the chips fall where they may.

He was shooting minor PF, so their was no outward damage or bodily injury. I'm sure the barrel was junk, possibly the slide also.

Oh...Hell. I saw that gun briefly. I wanted to take a better look but I had to run. He said it was locked up tighter than Dick's hatband.

Stuff happens. You didn't hear it and wouldn't be expected to stop the shooter (he said it was rather quiet).

[sperman]

Let me offer the flip side to this story.

I was working the GA state match a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't on the timer, but I was staying close to the shooter and RO to be the second set of eyes on the stage. On about his 5th shot, the gun malfunctioned, the shooter racked the slide and pulled the trigger again. I couldn't tell what happened. I was double plugged and neither the shooter nor the RO on the timer reacted like it was anything other than a mis-feed. After the 2nd shot, the gun was completely locked up, and it started to become clear that the 1st shot was a squib. I'm still not sure I saw enough evidence to yell "Stop" but I feel horrible that the guy blew up his gun on my stage. If I (or the shooter) ever have any doubt the barrel is clear, I'll gladly stop them, offer a re-shoot (if warranted) and let the chips fall where they may.

He was shooting minor PF, so their was no outward damage or bodily injury. I'm sure the barrel was junk, possibly the slide also.

Oh...Hell. I saw that gun briefly. I wanted to take a better look but I had to run. He said it was locked up tighter than Dick's hatband.

Stuff happens. You didn't hear it and wouldn't be expected to stop the shooter (he said it was rather quiet).

slight thread drift...

The gun was locked up solid. You were unavailable but Peter came by and the only thing we could figure to do was bag the gun as is. There was still a case in the chamber, and a possibility that it was a live round. The gun was out of battery, and the hammer would not fall. Should we have done something differently?

The shooter was able to finish the match with my gun (and my ammo.)

Edited September 20, 2011 by sperman

[JThompson]

Now on the other hand... if the whole squad is yelling stop and you do stop. I can not see any self respecting RM not giving you a reshoot if the gun proves to be clear.

JT

Sounds like interference to me. Reshoot per 8.6.4.

BB

I would agree, but would 8.6.2 apply? Would I have to give procedural to the squad, to the competitor? What if the RO didn't check the gun for a squib? Advocate....

JT

(Set aside that the gun was locked up solid as per later in the thread)I'm asking people to think this through, not that anything was done wrong or what you have said is wrong. I just want you to think about the rules and derive answers based on them and not because, "It's the right thing to do."

Edited September 20, 2011 by JThompson

[ima45dv8]

Let me offer the flip side to this story.

I was working the GA state match a couple of weeks ago. I wasn't on the timer, but I was staying close to the shooter and RO to be the second set of eyes on the stage. On about his 5th shot, the gun malfunctioned, the shooter racked the slide and pulled the trigger again. I couldn't tell what happened. I was double plugged and neither the shooter nor the RO on the timer reacted like it was anything other than a mis-feed. After the 2nd shot, the gun was completely locked up, and it started to become clear that the 1st shot was a squib. I'm still not sure I saw enough evidence to yell "Stop" but I feel horrible that the guy blew up his gun on my stage. If I (or the shooter) ever have any doubt the barrel is clear, I'll gladly stop them, offer a re-shoot (if warranted) and let the chips fall where they may.

He was shooting minor PF, so their was no outward damage or bodily injury. I'm sure the barrel was junk, possibly the slide also.

Oh...Hell. I saw that gun briefly. I wanted to take a better look but I had to run. He said it was locked up tighter than Dick's hatband.

Stuff happens. You didn't hear it and wouldn't be expected to stop the shooter (he said it was rather quiet).

slight thread drift...

The gun was locked up solid. You were unavailable but Peter came by and the only thing we could figure to do was bag the gun as is. There was still a case in the chamber, and a possibility that it was a live round. The gun was out of battery, and the hammer would not fall. Should we have done something differently?

The shooter was able to finish the match with my gun (and my ammo.)

Nice of you to loan him your gun (I wondered who did that...).

If it was out of battery and wouldn't budge, I don't know what else could be done besides bag it and get the damn thing out of there.

[centermass]

On inspection, it was a sideways primer and could clearly be seen as such.

Clearly you shouldn't be shooting improperly loaded ammunition, jeopardizing not only yourself, but the apparently crappy RO standing next to you...

[Mark R]

Mark

I'm confused...Why would you get a re-shoot if you say you had a sideways primer (post #3) and if rule 5.7.7.1 says "If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot..."

Re-shoot because the entire squad was yelling stop?

The other Mark

Edited September 20, 2011 by Mark R

[Flexmoney]

Mark

I'm confused...Why would you get a re-shoot if you say you had a sideways primer (post #3) and if rule 5.7.7.1 says "If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot..."

Are you asking if a "suspected problem" means bad ammo...or just a squib?

If so...there is a monster thread on that.

[Flexmoney]

I had one of these this past Sunday.

I suspect it was a sideways primer (now). At the time, it sure seemed like a squib. More of a "poof" sound...not so much of a "bang." And,. the slide didn't cycle completely.

My RO was on the ball and got me "stopped". He heard the same thing and saw the slide.

It's a strong argument to box your ammo, which allows you to check the primers out an extra time. My rounds were loose in a box. I tried to give them the stink-eye as I load them in the mags, but folks tend to talk with me while I am doing that...and trying to count to ten without using my fingers.

I've got some mixed brass lately...and my federal primers don't always make nice with those tight primer pockets.

[ima45dv8]

Mark

I'm confused...Why would you get a re-shoot if you say you had a sideways primer (post #3) and if rule 5.7.7.1 says "If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot..."

Re-shoot because the entire squad was yelling stop?

The other Mark

Because everyone is the vicinity was yelling STOP! (except for the RO), so I did.