Is there such a thing flinching only while shooting static?

[98006]

I notice I flinch when shooting static at the range. But it does not seem to affect my comp shooting. Can there be such a thing?

[Lee G]

I had one instructor that would tie us up in conversation and then suddenly bark "THREAT!" which was the command to draw and engage a target. The idea behind it was to detach us from the act of shooting. Basically we were relaxed and simply drew the pistol and fired 2 or 3 rounds before returning to compressed ready. My guess would be when you aren't moving and your simply repeating the same drill over and over from a static position is that your thinking way to much about what you're doing.

Try taking longer breaks, talking to a shooting buddy and just work on clearing your mind of the actual act of shooting. I find I shoot my best when I just shoot.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Lee G

[DonovanM]

I'm the exact same way. I flinch like hell when shooting static indoors. Can usually only keep my shots within 6-8" at 25 yards because of it. Ball and dummy drills don't really help after I stop doing them.

I haven't shot static outdoors in a long time though, and I wonder how different it would be. Not many outdoor ranges to be found nearby though.

[benos]

I find I shoot my best when I just shoot.

I'm a big fan of that. (Just Shoot)

[59Bassman]

There are lots of trap shooters who ultimately go to release triggers because of flinches. Many more trap shooters shoot releases than skeet or sporting clays shooters (at least from what I have observed). There's some thought and discussion that it's because trap is a more static sport than either skeet or sporting clays.

I find it very possible that in a flat-footed, static environment, you'll exhibit more of a flinch than when you're moving, engaging multiple targets, managing reloads, etc.

[Chrome308]

I've noticed that I also tend to flinch more when shooting static.

In that sense, practical (rapid) shooting is helping to teach my slow-fire.

[GuyC]

I seem to get it. When I shoot a group from a bench I seem to flinch but when I am on the clock it totally goes away. I have a video from the Georiga state match from were I shot empty, reloaded and pulled the trigger on a empty chamber and nothing moved but the trigger finger. I was impressed with myself.

It is weird, when I take my time I think about recoil. When I am in a match I think just about making the shot, and not about what happens after I pull the trigger.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I notice I flinch when shooting static at the range. But it does not seem to affect my comp shooting.

Are you saying that you can shoot smaller groups at 20 yards

by firing very quickly than by taking your time and shooting

more deliberately?

Jack

[Sin-ster]

I am the exact same way, and I'm fairly certain it all comes down to tension. Which can easily result from being super deliberate with the entire process-- instead of "just shooting".

Under the clock, you don't have that "luxury". Your only concern is to get to the shooting, and let the movement of the sights dictate what happens.

While you didn't direct it at me, Jack-- I think I might be able to answer your question. No, I can't shoot a smaller group at 20 yards firing quickly than I can taking my time. I am however far less prone to fliers that result from anticipation-- heeling, jerking the trigger, milking the grip, breaking the wrist up, etc. It's not so much that the breaks are really surprises, only that I don't have time to contemplate the break at all and putz up the process.

The only way I've found to (mostly) overcome the phenomenon is to simply focus on watching the sights lift-- as close to a timed/match state of mind that I can manage as of yet. If I focus on accurately calling every shot (instead of just noticing the bad ones on the fly), down to the inch, I find a lot of that anticipation goes away. Although I also discovered that floating the gun in one spot for so long also results in tension, especially as your slow fire session goes on and on.

[Hi-Power Jack]

. No, I can't shoot a smaller group at 20 yards firing quickly than I can taking my time. I am however far less prone to fliers that result from anticipation-- heeling, jerking the trigger, milking the grip, breaking the wrist up, etc. It's not so much that the breaks are really surprises, only that I don't have time to contemplate the break at all and putz up the process.

I wonder if there are two disciplines of shooters

involved with IPSC - 1. ex target shooters, and

2. very fast shooters.

I am an ex target shooter, and having great difficulty

shooting very fast - I shoot better slowly.

I have a feeling that many new shooters never went

throught the "bullseye stage" and started out

shooting IPSC very fast with a "large target", and

they can "shoot better quickly than slower"?

Just a thought???

Jack

[38supPat]

I'm sure theres a couple of reasons, one can be noise related especially if shooting static indoors versus shooting stages outside. Also its easier to anticipate the shot while group shooting instead of during a stage where you are more likely to be acting on what is happening. I always had a bad habit of trying in practice but I can usually be in more observation mode during a stage so flinches tend to show up more in practice than in matches...but also the flinches and resultant poor accuracy robs you of your confidence when shooting matches

[Sin-ster]

. No, I can't shoot a smaller group at 20 yards firing quickly than I can taking my time. I am however far less prone to fliers that result from anticipation-- heeling, jerking the trigger, milking the grip, breaking the wrist up, etc. It's not so much that the breaks are really surprises, only that I don't have time to contemplate the break at all and putz up the process.

I wonder if there are two disciplines of shooters

involved with IPSC - 1. ex target shooters, and

2. very fast shooters.

I am an ex target shooter, and having great difficulty

shooting very fast - I shoot better slowly.

I have a feeling that many new shooters never went

throught the "bullseye stage" and started out

shooting IPSC very fast with a "large target", and

they can "shoot better quickly than slower"?

Just a thought???

Jack

Oh, absolutely. I shoot with several members of the Bullseye group at every local match-- steel, man-on-man plates and IPSC/USPSA alike. I've seen one in particular shoot perfect points across all 5 stages, albeit "deliberately".

I'm definitely on the other side of the fence. I didn't grow up shooting much of anything, and only picked up pistols "seriously" about a year and a half ago. I still struggle with the mechanics of accuracy, slow fire or otherwise-- but not the vision.

There is of course a third group-- those who excel in both regards, like our esteemed board host and those of his caliber. I think they call them... M and GM's... Although admittedly, even within that group, the "two disciplines" are still present, albeit at far less pronounced levels.

I can look at the stages for a local match and tell you generally where each group of shooters is going to finish. I can also look at the results of a match I didn't attend and tell you what strengths the stages favored. That's only possible because of the distinction between the two disciplines-- speed vs. accuracy.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've heard some people say that it is easier

to teach a "fast shooter" accuracy, than it is

to teach an accurate shooter speed:(

And, I've been fighting the speed issue for

many years:((

I've noticed that, at my B/C level, that if

I shoot faster than I can shoot accurately,

that my overall score is frequently better

than when I am "too deliberate".

But, you are right about the M/GM's - they

know how to hit a small target quickly -

wish I could do that:))

Jack

[benos]

I've noticed that, at my B/C level, that if

I shoot faster than I can shoot accurately,

that my overall score is frequently better

than when I am "too deliberate".

Right.

The trick to quick, accurate shooting lies in: Shoot every A at the "earliest opportunity."

It's easy, especially as a beginner at shooting quickly, to become stuck in "stop-and-go shooting." In stop-and-go shooting, every shot is fired with a perfectly aligned sight picture, which is stopped dead center on the target.

Of course more dificult shots require stopping the gun and confirming a perfect sight picture, before you break the shot. Most of the A's in a match, however, can be secured while the gun is still moving.

Ask yourself some questions to find out where you are wasting time.

On each shot - do you see the front sight coming back down into the notch so you can shoot as soon as the sight alignment is good enough to get an A? Or do you wait to see the sights perfectly lined up on the target before you shoot?

How long was my barrel pointed at the A-zone, before I fired the shot? Your sights will spend less time in every A-zone, the more you learn how to "read the sights."

Compare reading the sights to reading in general. When reading, your eyes never stop moving. Your mind quickly transforms what is on the page as a series of letters and spaces into words and sentences that have meaning. When reading the sights, your focus never stops moving, from the target to the sights to the target, and so on. Whenever you are aware of the sights, you know, at each instant, where the bullet would go if the gun fired. Reading the sights is similar to calling the shot. Calling the shot is an often discussed topic on the forums - perhaps search the forums for more info on calling the shot.

[Babaganoosh]

I seem to get it. When I shoot a group from a bench I seem to flinch but when I am on the clock it totally goes away. I have a video from the Georiga state match from were I shot empty, reloaded and pulled the trigger on a empty chamber and nothing moved but the trigger finger. I was impressed with myself.

It is weird, when I take my time I think about recoil. When I am in a match I think just about making the shot, and not about what happens after I pull the trigger.

That's because you are overthinking it. On the bench you are thinking about shooting, when you are on the clock you are just shooting since you have no time to think.

An idle mind is the devils playground.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Babaganoosh

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've noticed that, at my B/C level, that if

I shoot faster than I can shoot accurately,

that my overall score is frequently better

than when I am "too deliberate".

Right.

The trick to quick, accurate shooting lies in: Shoot every A at the "earliest opportunity."

Compare reading the sights to reading in general. When reading, your eyes never stop moving. Your mind quickly transforms what is on the page as a series of letters and spaces into words and sentences

Thanks Brian, never thought of it that way. I'll give it a try next match.

Jack

[Sin-ster]

I've heard some people say that it is easier

to teach a "fast shooter" accuracy, than it is

to teach an accurate shooter speed:(

Cripes, if that's true-- tell me where to sign up!

My problem has got to be trigger control. I can see and most of the time feel the shot go wrong, but I swear I have a hard time figuring out exactly why. Frankly, I probably picked the wrong pistol-- but as I've said before, I refuse to let it beat me!

[Hi-Power Jack]

easier

to teach a "fast shooter" accuracy, than it is

to teach an accurate shooter speed:(

My problem has got to be trigger control. I probably picked the wrong pistol--

What pistol did you pick?

For trigger control, there's a drill using dots at 7 - 10 yards -

it has been posted here - I tried it and it's a great drill for

"trigger control".

Jack

[Sin-ster]

What pistol did you pick?

For trigger control, there's a drill using dots at 7 - 10 yards -

it has been posted here - I tried it and it's a great drill for

"trigger control".

Jack

A G17, with some mid-level trigger work. Like many folks, it's not easy for me to shoot as well as some other pistols. Although I did very well with it (accuracy wise) yesterday-- 90%+ of the points on every stage.

Being a firm believer in the "pick a pistol and learn to shoot it" principle, I've done just that. But any slight break down in technique is magnified, unlike other pistols I've shot that seem to be more forgiving. I didn't want to solve a shooter problem with new equipment, but I'm at the point now where I'm thinking about making it a back up pistol and going with something new. Or perhaps going with a full Vanek, for the sake of the better trigger feel. Right now, it pulls soft (~2.5#), but it's sloppy.

But nothing is going to be changed until the end of October, after I shoot the LGC.

[Bart Solo]

What pistol did you pick?

For trigger control, there's a drill using dots at 7 - 10 yards -

it has been posted here - I tried it and it's a great drill for

"trigger control".

Jack

A G17, with some mid-level trigger work. Like many folks, it's not easy for me to shoot as well as some other pistols. Although I did very well with it (accuracy wise) yesterday-- 90%+ of the points on every stage.

Being a firm believer in the "pick a pistol and learn to shoot it" principle, I've done just that. But any slight break down in technique is magnified, unlike other pistols I've shot that seem to be more forgiving. I didn't want to solve a shooter problem with new equipment, but I'm at the point now where I'm thinking about making it a back up pistol and going with something new. Or perhaps going with a full Vanek, for the sake of the better trigger feel. Right now, it pulls soft (~2.5#), but it's sloppy.

But nothing is going to be changed until the end of October, after I shoot the LGC.

Why do you use a pistol that you can't shoot as well as some other pistols? Is the Glock 17 required by your job?

If it was me, I would make sure the equipment fit like a glove. I wouldn't think twice about dumping something that I couldn't shoot well. Seriously, you don't see baseball players using bats that are too thick at the grip, or golfers using clubs that are too short or too long.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Bart Solo

[Sin-ster]

Why do you use a pistol that you can't shoot as well as some other pistols? Is the Glock 17 required by your job?

If it was me, I would make sure the equipment fit like a glove. I wouldn't think twice about dumping something that I couldn't shoot well. Seriously, you don't see baseball players using bats that are too thick at the grip, or golfers using clubs that are too short or too long.

I can think of about a dozen reasons-- most of which actually apply to me.

First and foremost, now that I put in the time and the effort, I shoot it better than anything else I've got. It just took some work, which I'm not at all adverse to putting in.

Second, it's about the simplest tool for the job. I learned how to work on the thing from the guts outward in less than an hour, and the ease with which you can pull it apart and perform maintenance has come in handy several times. I definitely can't say the same thing about even my M&P, despite the similarities.

The only time it ever gave me any problems at all was a result of not balancing out and tuning the collection of new parts. I've got 40k+ through it and it just won't choke.

Mags, parts, accessories and all of that jazz are plentiful, cheap, easy to come by and very much "perfected".

It's the easiest gun for me to handle out of all of them-- which in our little game, translates to quite a bit of your score. Now that it feels like it's just another part of my hand, almost everything else feels unnatural.

Whatever difference it would have made was far from enough to make me a GM shooter. There's still a ton of things to improve in my abilities that an equipment change won't match. When the edges start getting smaller and smaller, I pick up something else.

And while it doesn't really apply to me in this regard, money doesn't grow on trees. Not everyone is going to have the cash to put towards a new gun and gear on a whim.

There was never anything wrong with the gun-- there was something wrong with the way I shot it. Quite frankly, in many ways, it was the best choice. I just needed some time to get used to the trigger, and still fall into bad habits every now and again. I think the learning curve wouldn't have been so steep with something else, but to be honest, I feel pretty rewarded for all of my efforts. Maybe I'm stubborn, prideful or just really like a challenge. But it was a conscious decision to stick with it, and I tend to make pretty good ones.

[Bart Solo]

Those are all excellent reasons for not changing now that you have invested the time to learn the G17. What about the Glock lead you to the decision to invest the time in the first place?

By the way, I admire your dedication.

I asked the question because I once owned a Glock and the thing just didn't fit my hand. Nothing I could do would make it work for me. You should never have to adopt a bizarre, uncomfortable grip just to pull a trigger. It was the first handgun I had ever purchased. I figured I would never be able to shoot a handgun so I traded the Glock for a shotgun. It took me 25 years to return to pistol shooting all because the darn Glock just didn't fit. Nobody ever mentioned to me that there are a lot of other handguns and one of them is bound to be perfect and encountering one that doesn't fit shouldn't scare a shooter away from pistol shooting.

[Sin-ster]

I always wanted a G17, whether or not it would be a competition gun. I found one that was basically brand new and for a steal of a price, right about the time I was planning on shooting my first USPSA match. It sort of came together that way.

It wasn't my first Glock, however, and I felt pretty confident in my starting abilities with the platform. It never felt uncomfortable in my hands, and I had shot Glocks enough to have a pretty solid NPA already established. I prefer arched mainspring housings on 1911's as well, so I guess it's a quirk of my body type. The ergonomics that most people complain about actually suit me in most cases. I thought the gun was to blame for my problems dropping mags, but I discovered it was my technique that was so faulty.

After shooting a few hundred rounds in practice, I got to the point where I could group it as well as my other pistols. At the time, it seemed like a great fit for me. As my technique developed and my skills increased, I found it was indeed starting to lag behind. But by then, I was pretty well invested in its use and decided to stick with it. As more time passed, I gave it very careful consideration and looked at the schedule of Major matches I planned to shoot. Knowing full well I couldn't be nearly as comfortable with a new pistol in time, and finding so many positives about the gun, I decided there was no way I was changing in the near future. A good thing, too-- my life got turned upside down a few weeks ago and I haven't had time at all to practice until this past Friday!

It took me a long, long time to figure out what I was doing wrong. And in the process of fixing one thing, another would pop up. Unlike many folks, I didn't grow up shooting much of anything-- and never pistols. Simple marksmanship is something I'm still working on, but on some level I believe undertaking that task with a pistol that's difficult to shoot may pay dividends later on in life. I've never had to really alter my grip to work the trigger, but there's definitely a specific technique necessary to keep from upsetting the sights.

I'm glad to hear you picked the pistols back up again! I've had a blast since I decided to start taking it a little seriously, and have no doubt that I'll be shooting matches for the rest of my life.

[Bart Solo]

I got into pistol shooting a couple of years ago when I watched a show about cowboy shooting. I went to a match and held a Colt SSA. It fit my hand perfectly and pointed naturally. I shot a time or two and was hooked. I have since purchased a SA 1911 and find that it fits my hand as well as the SSA and points even better. I have even picked up a SA XDM and have no problems. The G17 is still a whole different kettle of fish. The grip just doesn't fit. My son has one and loves it.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Bart Solo

[Sin-ster]

I got into pistol shooting a couple of years ago when I watched a show about cowboy shooting. I went to a match and held a Colt SSA. It fit my hand perfectly and pointed naturally. I shot a time or two and was hooked. I have since purchased a SA 1911 and find that it fits my hand as well as the SSA and points even better. I have even picked up a SA XDM and have no problems. The G17 is still a whole different kettle of fish. The grip just doesn't fit. My son has one and loves it.

It's definitely a different grip angle, for sure. I've got small-ish hands, which I guess usually have a problem with the Glock, but I guess something about my wrists makes it a natural pointer? I also prefer an arched mainspring on a 1911, which shocked the heck out of me because I've ALWAYS heard it was for bigger hands-- although there was a thread around here a few months ago about using one when transitioning from a Glock because it simulates the same grip angle.

Definitely to each their own! I really like the M&P's grip a lot, and having fondled an XDm 5.25" recently, I was impressed by its natural feel as well. Now Sigs, Berettas and (to some extent) CZs are a different story...