David Tubb's Final Finish System

[TRG65]

I got a new rifle tonight and was debating using the Final Finish coated bullets to break in the barrel.

The rifle is a Kimber 84M in .308.

If anyone has any experience either with the Final Finish system or the Kimber 84 I would like to hear about them.  

Thanks

[tightloop]

Probably the primo barrel maker in the US, Hart; says forget the moly coated or polymer coated bullets.  Doesn't do much, good or bad.

[TRG65]

I guess I wasn't real clear.  Final Finish is a firelapping kit that breaks in and smooths the bore.

Here is a link to the propoganda.  I have seen various reports.  Some places love it and some hate it, seems to be like moly.

http://www.zediker.com/tubb/finalfinish.html

[kurtm]

HTRN:

I have used the final finish kits on two barrles so far, both in .223. It definately helped both! one was a shot out Colt barrle and the other was a brand new Krieger. Helped the Colt group better again by halfing the group size from 2 MOA to MOA (not bad for a barrle thats throat is so worn that a 69 gr bullet will fall out of the case befor it hits the rifling). The Krieger was a very finicky barrle in what it liked and what it didn't like. It was primer/powder sensitive to the extream!! after the final finish kit it was much more forgiving as to accuracy with different combos of bullet/powder/primer.

I guess I would try the barrle first. If it doesn't do what you think it should, you might give it a try. It did work wonders on the two I've tried it on so far.              KURT

[ErikW]

HTR, Bennie Cooley recommended it in his rifle class. For all new rifles and old rifles which won't shoot.

[George]

I have used the FinalFinish kits to firelap 4 different barrels (3 in .223, and 1 in .270), and every one of them showed improvements in accuracy. They also cleaned a lot better afterwards too!

The velocity of a given loading will also be reduced due to the barrel having less resistance, and therefore the pressure, and velocity will be lower. No real problem, just up the charge a little, and you are back home.

I also use the #4, and #5 grits from the FinalFinish kits as a throat maintenance system (Tubb sell these grits as the TMS system, but you get extra of these finer grits with each FinalFinish kit anyway). I shoot a couple of the fine grit bullets every 4-500 rounds on my firelapped rifles to keep throat erosion under control.

I did not firelap the barrel on my JP AR as it is a lapped barrel to start with. But I do use the TMS on it to keep it accurate.

BTW, the NECO firelap kits, and loaded firelapping ammo, are of poor quality compared to the Tubb grit coated bullets, and they are way pricier to boot.

5 Stars for Tubb on this product.

Regards,

[Protagonist]

I used the Tubbs finishing system #3 thru 5 on my JP.

Before doing so, I did a break in exactly as detailed in an Armalite manual for AR's with stainless barrels.  I found no discernible difference in accuracy after completing the Tubbs protocol.

[George]

Protagonist, the reason you saw no difference is that the JP barrel is about as smooth as it's gonna get already because it is lapped prior to you receiving it as part of the JP barrel prep process.

My JP barrel (20" 1:8 Lightweight Competition) was like glass when I got it, didn't need much break-in, and cleaned real easy right from the start. I did not firelap it because it did not need it, nor would I expect it to.

I do however, use the Throat Maintenance System (the 4's & 5's) to keep throat area erosion under control in my JP (a couple rounds every 4-500 rounds). The full firelap run with FinalFinish requires 10 each of grits #1-5. I would not expect the #3, thru #5 grits alone to do much except burnish the throat area real well. If this area is not in rough shape to start with, then little, or no improvement will be had.

The FinalFinish system will give the best results with standard grade, and well used barrels. You will "typically" get little, or no improvement with well prepared match grade barrels from a good custom maker.

The four barrels that I got great results from were a Remington 788 in .270, an old Eagle 1:9 .223 that was near shot out, and two low mileage Colt AR barrels (sporter 1:9, and HBAR 1:7). The Remington had less than 100 rounds through it, and really perked up. The AR barrels all had 1000-2000, or (lot's) more through them, and they all shot a little bit tighter, to a whole lot tighter.  They also cleaned like nobody's business after the FinalFinish treatment (this alone is worth the effort).

I hope this helps you understand the results you got.

Regards,

(Edited by George at 1:49 am on Mar. 1, 2003)

[TRG65]

Thanks,

I ordered some Kimber bases, through a fellow shooter, and am going to pick them up next week.  I'm going to buy 3 boxes of Hornady match 168's shoot 1 box through to give a base line with good factory ammo, then a standard 100 round break in, another box of factory ammo to determine any improvement, the tubbs system and then the third box of factory ammo.  I'll have three points data points with the same factory ammo.

[Protagonist]

Hi George (Geoffrey),

Thanks for all the input concerning my JP.  John G. at JP told me I didn't need to do  much of anything for break in, but he never mentioned why.  I should have listened to what he said.  I have another JP on order so I guess I'll forget about all the labor-intensive things I did the last time and just shoot the thing.

Al

[George]

"I'll have three points data points with the same factory ammo"

------------------------------------------------------

HTR,

I am definitely interested in hearing what your results will say. How easily the barrel cleans before and after would be a good thing to try and determine. IMHO, this is where you will notice an improvement, even if there is no big accuracy benefit to be found.

I also noticed that after the FinalFinish treatment, I was able to shoot my AR barrels a lot longer before copper buildup bled off accuracy. I am guessing that a smoother barrel surface takes off less copper jacketing in passage, therefore less buildup.

Thanks,

--------------------------------------------

"I guess I'll forget about all the labor-intensive things I did the last time and just shoot the thing

-----------------------------

Hi Protag,

Yeah, I went through a lot of soul searching myself when I got my JP last year. I really wanted to do a good breakin, like it was a new Ferrari, or something. But after listening to John Paul, and deciding to just shoot the sucker, I really learned something here.

My JP shot 3/4 MOA right away with just about any charge under a Sierra 69, or 77 grain MatchKing. After I got a little development going, and a couple hundred rounds through it, I started getting consistent just over 1/2 MOA results with the S77, and just under 3/4 MOA with the S69 (both on Varget). I am not sure if the rifle actually started to shoot a little bit better after 100 rounds, or I started feeding, and handling it a little better than at first, but it is truly a tackdriver, and was so right out of the box.

In fact, I am pretty certain that this rifle will actually shoot my precision loadings to a good bit under 1/2 MOA, I'm just not that good of a group shooter myself, so 1/2 MOA is about the best that I can consistently hold.

Regards,

[Bret Heidkamp]

I'd give it a thumbs up.  I now have a fairly stock (pillar bedded only) 338 win that shoots 5 shot groups 3 3/8" at 430 yards, our club's furthest backer distance :-(

Before it would only do about 1 1/2 at 100 yards, I didn't even bother shooting it at distance.  

It cleans up better, too, as advertised.  

[D.Hayden]

For new barrels, do most people shoot the whole series? or just 3 through 5?

Thanks.. Dave

[smokshwn]

Dave,

It very much depends on the barrel. Are you talking about a factory stock remington barrel or an already lapped JP?

In my Rem PSS barrel I did not see a huge accuracy increase. It was a consistent 3/4 moa and now I easily hold 1/2 moa. Keep in mind this was done at the same time I took a long range class so my skill level probably plays a role in the accuracy change.

However the large improvement I did see was in the cleaning of my barrel and an approximate 20 fps increase in velocity. My barrel fouls much less than it did and cleans up in 5-6 patches instead of 20-25.

If my notes are correct I saw an improvement in my cold bore shot as well.

IMO if you have a stock barrel of any type I think the Final Finish is a very good process. It certainly won't hurt.

Do a search on www.snipershide.com or www.snipersparadise.com, there are some quite extensive threads about it.

Craig

[rmfield]

I've used Tubbs Final Finish on several rifles - 3-gun (2 @ .223), precision (2 @ .308 & 300 WM) and hunting (1 @ .270). I think it improves accuracy and also reduces the time for that ever so painful process of breaking barrels in. As I recall, he suggests a slightly reduced protocol for higher quality barrels and that is the one I have always used.

[Ron Ankeny]

I have a Kimber 84M varmint rifle in .22-250 with the 26" fluted stainless barrel that I use for prairie dawgs. I broke the barrel in the slow and pains taking way.

I had some bedding issues early on. My stock is wood. One of the rifle techs in Montana suggested I get Darrell Holland's rifle bedding video tape from AGI and bed the rifle properly. He also suggested I bed one inch in front of the recoil lug (yes I know that's a no-no). The action is short and only 5/8 inch in diameter. It's not very rigid for such a heavy barrel and it just sits atop two pillars that have a concave surface. The rifle "never should have gone into production without glass" according to the Kimber rifle tech. FWIW, he no longer works for Kimber.

After bedding the rifle, I am getting sub half MOA groups. Last weekend I went prairie dawg hunting with one of the guys in our IPSC club who happens to be an avid varmint hunter. He served as spotter while I shot and vice-versa. I managed to stack up 5 prairie dogs from the same shooting location at 547 yards, 565, 584, 586, and 592 yards. Of course I didn't do it with 5 consecutive rounds. Enough about prarie dogs, this isn't a hunting forum. On paper, I am getting 2 1/2 inch groups at 400 yards and a little over 3 inches at 600 yards. The powder charges were thrown not measure, the run out is horrible, primer pockets were not uniformed and the bullets, powder, and primers are mixed lots. Not exactly bench rest precision reloading practices. The rifle is incredibly accurate for a production gun.

As for the trigger, it is a "Timney" type trigger and it's easy to adjust. The screw in the back is for sear engagement. The bottom front screw is for weight of pull, and the top front screw is for over travel. Mine is safe and crisp at two pounds. If you want ounces, an aftermarket trigger would be the way to go, but I don't know of any aftermarket triggers available for the 84M.

[D.Hayden]

Anyway to tell which series are which?

It looks like they get lighter from #5 to #1 (#1 almost looks like a regualr bullet) - just want to make sure they didn't get mixed up.

[Huck]

I 've played with an 84m quite extensively and it is a great rifle, but it wasn't a bullet stacker. It hovered around the inch mark with everything we put through it. I wouldn't worry about the final finish in that gun, it is accurate enough.