2 Newb-ish Reloading Questions

[Sin-ster]

1) Just how much bell is appropriate in a straight walled case? 9mm to be specific.

I've read all the "just enough to not shave anything" answers, but I'm too OCD to not get some specifics. I've found mention of as little as 6 thousandths, to as much as 20 (from the Dillon manual-- and why don't they just say "2 hundreths", or .02???) My Google-fu must be weak, as I can't find any clear pictures of it, either. Still waiting on boolits (USPS is a joke, btw), but trying to get as much set up in advance as possible. FWIW, .018 looks like quite a bit, and the .030 I had was flagrantly too much. (Yep-- scrapping these test cases, so don't sweat it.)

On a side note, that powder drop/belling die LOVES to move around when you're locking everything into place.

2) The dryer sheet trick for static electricity makes a lot of sense. But...

Dryer sheet with fabric softener, or is there a plain one? New, used-- specially treated? Everything I've got laying around, or could find passing through a RiteAid, have got fabric softener-- and those things feel really tacky/sticky. I know that used and cut up, they're good to mix with your media in a tumbler-- but I wanted to make sure before I go swiping them through the powder hopper.

[CocoBolo]

Belling on the 9 mm is between .378 and .382 depending on the bullet type Jacketed to Moly coated.

Used dry sheets collect the fine dust that is in the media of the tumbler. I use Bounce after it has done its work in the dryer.

Your next question. Crimp - .375-.376 on jacketed bullets, and it will vary slighly with range brass as it varies in thickness.

My belling die stays put locked into the tool tool head. When using a powder thru die those do have a slight wobble factor and if the index on the press is off a bit it will destroy a lot of brass.

Your fine adjustment of the belling die like the seating die will occur when all stations in the press have brass in them, any adjustment when there are empty stations will need to be readjusted. Start with the sizing die adjustment, that is the only one you do once and you are done. Keep brass in the sizing die and go around and do the rest, start loading and adjust the bell and seating die as necessary. As you load and drop check the rounds you might need to adjust the crimp slightly.

If there is a exception during loading and you stop to correct something always check every station before proceeding, this will help to eliminate Squibbs and Double charges.

Unlike computer manuals reloading manuals die instructions and the like are to be read and followed.

[Bob DuBois]

You sound like you have a new machine and no bullets, the die setting process will make more sense once supply's arrive.

9mm is a tapered wall case and can be a pain as all cases aren't created equal. Getting started spend a little time inspecting cleaned brass. You didn't mention which press you have but if it's a 650 what you put in the hopper will come down the tube. Look at the cases and remove any with trash, mud, splits stuck cases etc. .380 brass can find it's way in the mix and needs to be removed. I'll chunk Military cases, they have a smaller case volume than commercial brass. A little time sorting will save time in the loading process.

Stand or sit so you can see the station where you place the bullet. Look in the case for powder if you don't have a powder checker. The volume should be the same every time, if it's high or low find out why. During set up always place the top back on the powder measure after making adjustments. Someone comes into the room stop and finish the conversation before returning to loading. It's a fun process that can be rewarding once you have that pet load.

[Canuck223]

If you're OCD and you know it, wash your hands,

If you're OCD and you know it, wash your hands,

If you're OCD and you know it,

And you really want to show it,

If you're OCD and you know it, wash your hands....

OK, one problem that drives us with some OCD tendancies insane (Or gives us a reason to live depending on your point of view) is belling and crimp issues with pistol brass.

You are going to hear 5 or more different theories.

Here is mine.

Listen to the standard advice. Bell as little as you can to ensure positive seating without shaving. Crimp just enough to remove the belling, and maybe a .0005 more.

The more you work that brass, the more erratic the results will be and the shorter the life of the brass. With plated bullets, crimping is the cause of more accuracy problems than the cure. The bullet ought to remain in position through it's own diameter and case wall tension.

Don't fixate on numbers as absolutes with crimp and belling. Pistol brass when fired and resized tends to get progressively shorter. That unfortunately means the case mouth is not in absolutely the same position, case to case. It floats within an acceptable range, and so to will your belling and crimping.

[UW Mitch]

I'll echo the bell as little as possible to get the bullet to sit and seat and crrmp as little as possible to get the loaded round to case gauge and feed.

I used to use used dryer sheets because I was cheap and figured they acted like a screen filter. Then I tried a new dryer sheet and found whatever the "stuff" on it was, really helped to attract the fine dust. Additionally, a friend who uses walnut media for tumbling other materials would take his tumbler out in the driveway, with a fan behind him, and a long nozzle on his air compressor and just blow all the dust out of his tumbler. Works well, but you might not want to do it if you've got animals or kids around as tumbled brass dust is pretty nasty.

~Mitch

[Sin-ster]

Good stuff, guys! And even got a reply from a fellow "can't let it go" type-- I like that!

As to the machine-- 650, indeed. The bullets (which had better show up today) are MG 124 JHPs, so just enough to get them to seat-- check!

I do indeed have a powder check station, but will obviously visually reference the powder level before setting the bullet.

That's some great info on setting up the toolhead, Coco-- I will definitely give that method a shot! And thanks for some specific numbers. Even "in the ballpark" gives me something to latch on to, at least for reference.

Since this brass has been collecting for a LOOONG time, I went ahead and sorted it all out across several boring afternoons. Being OCD does have it's advantages-- not a single .380 case in almost 10k pieces, although I did have some stray .40 in there, plus some NATO headstamps. But I'll keep a close eye on it in the future-- and like I said, the cases I use to get the dies set up will just be scrapped.

I'm still a little confused on the dryer sheet, to eliminate static. I get how it works in the tumbler-- and actually used it last night, to great success. But seriously-- do you use a fresh, fabric softener-type sheet on the hopper to kill the static? (Leaves your press smelling "linen fresh"!)

[dillon]

In order to ensure consistant full travel of the powder bar on Dillon equipment, we recommend a case mouth flare of at least .010 to .020". The reason is that your handgun brass will all vary slightly in length. Flaring at least .010" ensures that a slightly shorter case will still fully actuate the powder bar, and have enough flaring to seat a bullet. Otherwise you have to be Uber-OCD to want to trim handgun brass!

[UW Mitch]

The dryer sheet is about picking up the dust, not eliminating static cling

[noylj]

Don't know where the "need" measure and specify everything is coming from, but everything depends on your brass and your gun.

Do not even THINK about trimming straight wall pistol brass. Your most accurate brass will be your longest cases.

How to know when you flare/bell the case enough? You look at it and put a bullet on it. It is REAL easy.

One area where you should measure, and almost no body does, is the expander.

You need to expand the section of case where the bullet will be seated to be no more than 0.002" less than the bullet diameter. If you are loading 0.355 bullets, the case ID where the bullet will be seated should be 0.354-0.353". This is where many people, particularly those loading lead bullets, fail to measure things and get them right. In fact, many people do not even expand the case--all they do is bell the case mouth.

For most of us, the only crimp we need is enough to remove the case mouth flare/bell so the cartridge chambers easily. This is why a measurement is meaningless and you need to check your barrel. The "crimp" that just allows the round to feed smoothly and chamber easily is what you want. Then you can measure it and try to reproduce later. For most people, it really is a LOT easier to run your finger or thumb along the bullet ogive to the case mouth and FEEL if the case still has too much flare--your finger or thumb will sort of hang-up on the flare.

This also applies to COL. No one can tell you the optimum COL for your gun and many people appear to be loading fairly short COLs. Many of my 9x19s are very sensitive to COL and I have to play with a couple of dummy rounds to find the ideal COL for a given bullet.

Read your manuals and learn where your OCD will be of some help and where it will simply be another frustration you are putting on yourself for no gain what so ever.

[g56]

Notice the dryer sheet is on the OUTSIDE of the powder hopper, it tends to kill or lower the static charge is the plastic, inside and outside.

[jswitt99]

Belling on the 9 mm is between .378 and .382 depending on the bullet type Jacketed to Moly coated.

Used dry sheets collect the fine dust that is in the media of the tumbler. I use Bounce after it has done its work in the dryer.

Your next question. Crimp - .375-.376 on jacketed bullets, and it will vary slighly with range brass as it varies in thickness.

My belling die stays put locked into the tool tool head. When using a powder thru die those do have a slight wobble factor and if the index on the press is off a bit it will destroy a lot of brass.

Your fine adjustment of the belling die like the seating die will occur when all stations in the press have brass in them, any adjustment when there are empty stations will need to be readjusted. Start with the sizing die adjustment, that is the only one you do once and you are done. Keep brass in the sizing die and go around and do the rest, start loading and adjust the bell and seating die as necessary. As you load and drop check the rounds you might need to adjust the crimp slightly.

If there is a exception during loading and you stop to correct something always check every station before proceeding, this will help to eliminate Squibbs and Double charges.

Unlike computer manuals reloading manuals die instructions and the like are to be read and followed.

I just upgraded you to "prime" steak...

TY for your insight.

[392heminut]

Notice the dryer sheet is on the OUTSIDE of the powder hopper, it tends to kill or lower the static charge is the plastic, inside and outside.

You know g56, a reloading bench that clean and organized is a sign of a sick mind!

[CocoBolo]

Belling on the 9 mm is between .378 and .382 depending on the bullet type Jacketed to Moly coated.

Used dry sheets collect the fine dust that is in the media of the tumbler. I use Bounce after it has done its work in the dryer.

Your next question. Crimp - .375-.376 on jacketed bullets, and it will vary slighly with range brass as it varies in thickness.

My belling die stays put locked into the tool tool head. When using a powder thru die those do have a slight wobble factor and if the index on the press is off a bit it will destroy a lot of brass.

Your fine adjustment of the belling die like the seating die will occur when all stations in the press have brass in them, any adjustment when there are empty stations will need to be readjusted. Start with the sizing die adjustment, that is the only one you do once and you are done. Keep brass in the sizing die and go around and do the rest, start loading and adjust the bell and seating die as necessary. As you load and drop check the rounds you might need to adjust the crimp slightly.

If there is a exception during loading and you stop to correct something always check every station before proceeding, this will help to eliminate Squibbs and Double charges.

Unlike computer manuals reloading manuals die instructions and the like are to be read and followed.

I just upgraded you to "prime" steak...

TY for your insight.

I can plus one on the little as you can bell and crimp but a new guy doesn't know how to judge that, so I gave you some numbers to work with. One thing on the Dillon, every time you put primers in make sure to tighten that dang nut on the fail safe rod, its annonying as heck it keeps working loose. I know Blue locktite, heck I got a wire feed welder right next to the press.

Make sure the primer wheel with the little holes is in the press, when I got mine I read the instrutions and it said it was in there so I started off mangling primers with the big one. Be sure to adjust that little spring loaded lever that holes the brass in the primer station, that can give you a fit a well.

I would not worry about the brass getting too long, you will lose it before it gets that long or it will split.

[Sin-ster]

You were spot on with the measurements for the bell/flare. At ~.390, the Redding Competition Seating Die starts shaving the brass and borking the COAL. I ended up with .382 for MG 124 JHPs, and it's smooth sailing. Still a little slow seating the bullet, as I'm insistent on getting it super straight-- although I did some that were in there pretty crooked and they came out seated properly anyway.

I'd read enough about the crimp to feel comfy, and sure enough it was a 3 minute adjustment and never had to touch it again. .3755 over and over and over again, with a very rare .376. (Yeah-- I sorted my brass, and the WIN thickness seems consistent.)

Thing I learned:

1) The OAL when you set up the seating die (with an otherwise empty shell plate) gets longer when you're loaded up. .003-.005, give or take.

2) The powder/bell die goes the opposite way, belling more after the plate is loaded up. Or maybe it had something to do with the hopper. In any event, set it up and back it off some before hand.

3) Everything indexes at different points in the handle's movement-- first the shell plate, then the primer plate, then the case feed. That's huge when you screw up or need to adjust/change something.

4) I need to make something to stop cases from feeding from the tube onto the shell plate. Much easier than pulling them off of the plate at certain stations.

Questions:

1) How does one go about adjusting that lever you're talking about? I didn't have any primer seating problems. I also pulled several cases out of that station-- is that bad on the spring?

2) Is a total spread of .006 pretty decent for COAL?

3) What's the best fix for the spilling powder when full cases snap into a new station? I know of the spring clip method and the "replacement part" method, but I'm pretty far from handy. (Just used my finger to apply a little pressure thus far-- works out well, but it's definitely time consuming.)

[CocoBolo]

Sounds like you are getting there. If you are not having primer issues then the part that holds the case in at the priming station is good, but it does have an allen head bolt on the back side.

The indexing at different points is an interesting way to put it, but with the statment that you are not having priming issues confuses the point. So with that in mind, when raising the ram you feel it index the shell plate you have reached "Zero" now before you start the up stroke give it a couple naono seconds of pause, kind of like the time that it takes the hammer to fall after you pull the trigger. I've never been able to just swing thru on my XL650. The primer index is adjusted by moving the Plastic block on the front of the frame that the primer advance arm rides on, is has a small amount of adjustment, mine is all the way down now.

Being a 9 major loader I have dealt with the powder sling and have pretty much figured it out. I started out with the cutting half coil off the detent ball spring, still slung powder, next I got the bearing kit, still slung powder. The best result I have is by tightening the shell plate to the point that it has a very slight amount of drag when indexing. Now the only powder on the shell plate is from the Powder Check plunger, I need to look at why I get some with it.

When loading 10gr of AA# 7 in a 9 mm case I have to slow down to keep from slinging a little powder, with 4.7gr of WST loading minor nope, go full tilt, no problem, loaded 1000 rounds in 37 minutes. 9 major speed about 800-900 an hour.

There are a few things with 9 mm, first check cases with a magnet, there are steel imposters out there, GECO and WCC brass have crimped primer pockets and they fowl up the works. An a Berdan primed case well its a hard stop and the sizing station.

I pull brass out here and there from time to time. You will get .005 OAL variance any time you seat a bullet and there is no brass in the sizing die. Conistent lenght starts with going all the way on the down stroke, and by having all stations full, however you are dealing with inconsistent brass and you will get some variance no matter what you do, .002-.003. My Hornady die have flat a cupped plungers for the seating die, some times the flat one works better than the cupped depending on the bullet shape.

[Sin-ster]

I think I naturally incorporated that pause on the priming upstroke, just because I was learning the feel of fully seating one-- and making sure I didn't crush it, either. And I see now what you're talking about for adjustments-- I'll definitely remember it, in case things start to loosen up a bit.

Your solve to the powder sling is another one I've read, so I suppose I'll give it a try. There are fortunately several good instruction sets/guides out there, so I hope it's a non-issue. Putting my finger on the shell plate was doing nothing more than causing drag, and it indexed perfectly. A more permanent, less involved solution makes total sense.

Fortunately, I read up on brass before I started picking it up, and have checked 98% of the headstamps as I was picking them up. Fortunately, I was able to be picky. I also took a few hours and sorted through everything and got it separated. WIN and Federal make up the bulk, but I did have some Geco that I shot for a pistol class, and had no idea it had crimped primers. Fortunately, it's less than 500 cases IIRC, so no huge loss there.

After the match today, I went and shot the 75 rounds I whipped up last night. No pressure signs, no problem feeding them from the mag, softer than all get out and remarkably accurate. Unfortunately, the .003-.006 difference between their OAL and that of my test rounds were enough to trap the follower when I loaded more than 8 rounds (G17). The good news is, as this did not happen with the dummy set, I must be REALLY close to that threshold. I'll probably take it down .005 from the dummy batch to be safe, and whip up enough to fill all 6 mags, and give them a shot.

Close with a new question--

When you clean your brass, just how much crap do you get out of the inside of the case? The upper part of the walls are spotless, getting a bit nastier down to the inner part of the head, but on the brass around the flash hole, some rounds stay pretty nasty.

The walnut I picked up is almost certainly too fine for the task, but I know where to pick up the coarser stuff. I might actually try a mixture of the two-- mad scientist style.

[maverick6652]

Sounds like you are getting there. If you are not having primer issues then the part that holds the case in at the priming station is good, but it does have an allen head bolt on the back side.

The indexing at different points is an interesting way to put it, but with the statment that you are not having priming issues confuses the point. So with that in mind, when raising the ram you feel it index the shell plate you have reached "Zero" now before you start the up stroke give it a couple naono seconds of pause, kind of like the time that it takes the hammer to fall after you pull the trigger. I've never been able to just swing thru on my XL650. The primer index is adjusted by moving the Plastic block on the front of the frame that the primer advance arm rides on, is has a small amount of adjustment, mine is all the way down now.

Being a 9 major loader I have dealt with the powder sling and have pretty much figured it out. I started out with the cutting half coil off the detent ball spring, still slung powder, next I got the bearing kit, still slung powder. The best result I have is by tightening the shell plate to the point that it has a very slight amount of drag when indexing. Now the only powder on the shell plate is from the Powder Check plunger, I need to look at why I get some with it.

When loading 10gr of AA# 7 in a 9 mm case I have to slow down to keep from slinging a little powder, with 4.7gr of WST loading minor nope, go full tilt, no problem, loaded 1000 rounds in 37 minutes. 9 major speed about 800-900 an hour.

There are a few things with 9 mm, first check cases with a magnet, there are steel imposters out there, GECO and WCC brass have crimped primer pockets and they fowl up the works. An a Berdan primed case well its a hard stop and the sizing station.

I pull brass out here and there from time to time. You will get .005 OAL variance any time you seat a bullet and there is no brass in the sizing die. Conistent lenght starts with going all the way on the down stroke, and by having all stations full, however you are dealing with inconsistent brass and you will get some variance no matter what you do, .002-.003. My Hornady die have flat a cupped plungers for the seating die, some times the flat one works better than the cupped depending on the bullet shape.

What do you mean about the Geco brass? I have a bunch of it. Do you have to anything special about depriming and do you have to ream the primer pockets? I have a Hornady LNL with Lee dies. Any advice is appreciated