ESP gun

[Joe4d]

I prefer 9 round magazines.

there is an 18 round max cof, I have 19, and if I am missing I am probably screwed up anyways.

1-10 round COF's no difference,

11 round COF's 9 rounder is screwed but you almost never see one.

12 round COF, usually big advantage, no tac load and no double index on last target. I bet more than half of all IDPA stages are 12 rounders, people love over all scores and a everyone reload once and only once COF is the best way to make it even for everyone.

13-18 no difference.

[Loves2Shoot]

I bet more than half of all IDPA stages are 12 rounders...

I reviewed our last 4 IDPA matches, and not one 12 round COF 28 stages, maybe the designer is making it 10 round friendly, no he shoots CDP, hmmm. I got some figurin' to do.

[Rob Tompkins]

you are absolutely correct . that is exactly what they do . they bring bth 9 and 10 rounders . and then decide which ones they will use 4 the match .

That is legal, but I doubt it makes a difference anywhere except in their imagination.

+1

If the COF is all paper & 2 rnds each it might make a difference. But throw in 3 rnds / tgt, the odd bit of steel, or a make up shot and you are hosed.

[Strick]

I bet more than half of all IDPA stages are 12 rounders...

I reviewed our last 4 IDPA matches, and not one 12 round COF 28 stages, maybe the designer is making it 10 round friendly, no he shoots CDP, hmmm. I got some figurin' to do.

I am pretty sure not every IDPA match shot is shot at you club.

[Loves2Shoot]

Oh, I know that, just I never heard that half of them are 12 rounds and we are such odd balls Generally they are very short, standards or field courses with 14-18 rounds. I was mistaken though, we did have a 12 rounder the last match, but it required a RWR before the last 6. Maybe that is why I've never considered running a 9 round mag.

[salilus]

Almost all of the stages at Nationals last year were 12 round stages.

1 - 42 round stage (standards)

1 - 18 round stage

1 - 17 round stage

1 - 15 round stage

13 - 12 round stages

[Joe4d]

Almost all of the stages at Nationals last year were 12 round stages.

1 - 42 round stage (standards)

1 - 18 round stage

1 - 17 round stage

1 - 15 round stage

13 - 12 round stages

and the year before that, and the year before that............

And I rest my case again, rarely if ever a disadvantage, and usually an advantage, and every year or so this discussion comes up and every year or so the nationals round count get posted and it is always the same.

The best people can say is if you miss a bunch your hosed, well if you miss a bunch your hosed anyways.

[Loves2Shoot]

Almost all of the stages at Nationals last year were 12 round stages.

1 - 42 round stage (standards)

1 - 18 round stage

1 - 17 round stage

1 - 15 round stage

13 - 12 round stages

Good info.

[Loves2Shoot]

Almost all of the stages at Nationals last year were 12 round stages.

1 - 42 round stage (standards)

1 - 18 round stage

1 - 17 round stage

1 - 15 round stage

13 - 12 round stages

and the year before that, and the year before that............

And I rest my case again, rarely if ever a disadvantage, and usually an advantage, and every year or so this discussion comes up and every year or so the nationals round count get posted and it is always the same.

The best people can say is if you miss a bunch your hosed, well if you miss a bunch your hosed anyways.

So, do most of those 13 stages everyone to a speed load before the last target or rwr before the last array.

[Steve Koski]

Whoops.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Steve Koski

[DWFAN]

IMO - 2010 Nats only a 1 or 2 stages was it beneficial to rwr in the middle somewhere such as if you "owned" the room/space or had cover and could rwr while moving.

With all the Car/tent/car/airplane seats, most people I saw did the speed (slide lock) reload on the last target or strategically managed insured their hits on a far target.

Edited July 22, 2011 by DWFAN

[Steve Koski]

Oh, you must mean a slide lock reload. Speed reloads are not IDPA legal:

Page 79:

Reload, Speed or Slide Down: Recharging the gun when there is

a round in the chamber by:

Dropping the partial magazine on the ground.

Drawing a spare magazine.

Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

Leaving the partial or empty magazine behind.

NOTE: There is NO provision for the speed reload in IDPA

competition.

[DWFAN]

Oh, you must mean a slide lock reload. Speed reloads are not IDPA legal:

Page 79:

Reload, Speed or Slide Down: Recharging the gun when there is

a round in the chamber by:

Dropping the partial magazine on the ground.

Drawing a spare magazine.

Inserting the spare magazine into the gun.

Leaving the partial or empty magazine behind.

NOTE: There is NO provision for the speed reload in IDPA

competition.

Correct, I was just following Scott's term, I understood him to mean slide lock.. maybe not though.

Edited July 22, 2011 by DWFAN

[Loves2Shoot]

Duh, of course slide lock reload, going between books the terms get messed up as I type. I don't assume folks would do a illegal reload at IDPA nats

Since the top 10 SSP shooters crushed the top 10 ESP shooter at last years nationals, I still don't think it makes much a difference, being the SSP guys were handicapped with light guns, no mag wells, bad triggers and 10 round magazines. They averaged 16.7 seconds faster per shooter

Edited July 22, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[1911vm]

now this statistics you cannot argue. and truly put everything in perspective . thank you I think my question is now truly answered.

Edited July 22, 2011 by 1911vm

[CDPMatt]

11 round COF's 9 rounder is screwed but you almost never see one.

Huh, shows a difference in MD's.... we run them all the time around here.

[DWFAN]

Duh, of course slide lock reload, going between books the terms get messed up as I type. I don't assume folks would do a illegal reload at IDPA nats

Since the top 10 SSP shooters crushed the top 10 ESP shooter at last years nationals, I still don't think it makes much a difference, being the SSP guys were handicapped with light guns, no mag wells, bad triggers and 10 round magazines. They averaged 16.7 seconds faster per shooter

Almost a fair comparison.. Looks to me like MANY more "Pro's" in the SSP top 10 than ESP.

Buuuut, I agree - more proof that its the Indian.. not the arrow..

The avg top 10 ESP Experts were 23 seconds faster than the top 10 SSP Experts. Maybe just better sandbaggers.

And..

Total SSP Avg score - 483.xx

Total ESP Avg score - 470.xx

ESP just may help the "average" indian more.

Edited July 22, 2011 by DWFAN

[Loves2Shoot]

Yea, but take Taran, Matt and Phil and they are about the same skill level, and guess what, their times are the same. Dave is on a whole other level right now.

I've yet to have any empirical proof the faster time for ESP is warranted, given the scores at the major matches or that they should be a huge division. Having ESP does create more winners and does reinforce the notion you can buy skill through a fancy gun though. I could shoot any gun I want (I'm lucky that way), but I shoot simple basic, under 1K guns in IDPA just to prove it isn't the arrow, since I get called a "gamer" anyway.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[Joe4d]

I think the closeness of the two divisions supports doing away with the distinction. Instead of SSP and ESP, Id like to see compact and fullsize, put a 1 inch spacer at the end of the box. for compact maybe a lighter weight than fullsize. Let the guns be seperated by size and weight instead of triggers.

[waktasz]

Right now I'm in love with my M&P Pro with magwell and Apex FSS/trigger kit. The trigger really is outstanding. I haven't had the chance to shoot a single stack 1911 in 9mm or 40 though. I think the double stack guns are easier to reload.

Edited July 22, 2011 by waktasz

[Steve Koski]

I think the closeness of the two divisions supports doing away with the distinction. Instead of SSP and ESP, Id like to see compact and fullsize, put a 1 inch spacer at the end of the box. for compact maybe a lighter weight than fullsize. Let the guns be seperated by size and weight instead of triggers.

I like that. Turn the smaller guns into the old SSP with few mods allowed, and the larger guns into the ESP with more mods allowed.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Steve Koski

[waktasz]

Then the people with a stock Glock17/Sig 226/Beretta will feel disadvantaged.

[Strick]

I shoot a CZ75 Shadow in ESP...........DA first shot. Doesn't seem to be a problem yet.

[Steve Koski]

waktasz,

Yeah, there would be tradeoffs for sure. It'll never happen anyway. Just yacking for fun.

Koski

[Loves2Shoot]

waktasz,

Yeah, there would be tradeoffs for sure. It'll never happen anyway. Just yacking for fun.

Koski

If you want to twist your brain a little, figure out why the M&P is SSP not ESP, since it doesn't "cock" the pistol any more than the XD does when you pull the trigger. The trigger bar just slides under the front of the sear, pivoting the rear of the sear down.

I like Joe's idea, but have no delusion it would happen.