Dropping an unloaded firearm

[gng4life]

Be clareful. The answer is not absolute. If the shooter is "having a bit of trouble", then RIC must not yet be declared by the RO.

If the gun drops after RIC is declared by the RO, it is not a DQ as long as the shooter does not touch the gun. If he does touch the gun, then a DQ would apply under 10.5.1.

This is why it is very important that the RO do his job correctly. Only call RIC when the handgun is properly hostered and the shooter has released his grip.

Hi George, can you clarify that? My understanding is that if the RO calls RIC, then that stops the CoF, correct? So what you are saying is there is a possibility that if the shooter was still fumbling with their firearm (during the re-holster/re-bagging process) and it drops after the RO calls RIC, then the shooter could be DQ'ed? How? That is more of a mistake of the RO, not the shooter. It is our responsibility as ROs to ensure the firearm is correctly and safely secured so the culpability lies back on the RO for not ensuring the pistol was secured.

I just can't see any way possible that the shooter could be a DQ if the RO calls RIC and the shooter follows 10.5.14. Please correct me or give me more info since I'm a little confused now...Thanks for the help!

I don't think my comments above were unclear. Yes, there is a possibility that the shooter could be DQd after RIC if he is still fumbling (handling by rulebook definition) with his gun. I referenced Rule 10.5.1.

This whole part of the thread has been about RO responsibility to NOT issue RIC until after the handgun has been properly cleared and holstered. Failing to correctly perform that duty exposes the shooter to unnecessary risk of DQ.

Something like that happening leads to arguments and the RM would be expected to take that RO to school. If I understand correctly the scenario mentioned from last year's Nationals, that is essentially what happened.

I know if I were the shooter and was DQd, I would be bringing out my $100 if the RM didn't deal with it correctly.

OK?

Gotcha, I was referring to the technical aspects of dropping a gun and a DQ, not RO responsiblity.

The "fumbling" is ambiguous so that is not clear about the actions there were taken at that point, just have to make sure there was no handling at that point.

Thanks for the again...

[big_wannabe]

I was once at the center of a raging debate on this subject, so I will chime in.

The following incedent took place at the 2005 Nationals.

I finished a course of fire, and received the "If clear, hammer down and holster command".

I holstered the gun, but it did not seat properly in the Ghost holster (a racegun type rig for limited)

As soon as I took my hand off of the gun, it tumbled out of the holster onto the ground.

The RO wanted to DQ me because he had not yet given "Range is Clear" when the gun fell.

The RangeMaster was called in for a ruling (John Amidon).

The judgement was:

I did holster the gun as commanded.

Once I took my hand off it, I had completed the course of fire.

If it then fell, it was regarded no differently than any unloaded gun falling from a holster anywhere on the range and should be treated the same way.

The RO picks it up and supervises the safe holstering of the firearm.

I was not DQ'd

I discovered later that this incident ignited a firestorm of debate within the leadership of the USPSA.

The heart of the matter was precisely when a course of fire ends.

Tls

I would disagree with the bolded. Proper use of the equipment is up to the competitor, if the gun had been "holstered" it wouldn't have fallen. If that happened to me I'd consider it my responsibility and expect to be DQd. I've never shot the nationals and I'm a nobody in this sport but that's my opinion.

[Nik Habicht]

He had enough of a grip on the gun yet that it did not make it all the way through the holster before he was able to stop its fall. Had him ULSC, bag it, and then sent him back to repair his holster.

That's tricky. As I understand it, you don't actually have to drop the gun to the ground to be DQ'd - you can just "lose control" of it. This sounds like he was right at or even past that line.

I had the same thought -- I'd have to see that one to make the call....

Could go either way...

The clear answer is to be found in App A3 under "Dropped Gun".

A moment in time, of course, but if he "had enough of a grip", no DQ.

And that's why I said I'd have to see it --- because "loss of control" is in the eye of the beholder, er, RO....

[Thomas H]

The RO gives the "Range is clear" command. As the shooter moves to start following the RO, the gun pops out of the holster. The shooter feeling the movement, instinctively reaches down and traps the gun against his body to keep it from falling to the ground. At that point, it's a DQ under 10.5.14.

Technically, no. This is a different scenario altogether.

In your case, the applicable rule is still 10.5.1 IF you handle the gun (see the App A3 definition). If you simply trap it against your body without using your hand, no DQ. Just call for a RO to take care of it. We know shooters instinctively react to the gun starting to fall and it was decided that no DQ should apply in such a case as long as the gun is not being "handled".

See App A3 also for the definition of "dropped gun" and notice that this definition only applies during the COF. That is the key to what I have mentioned here. There is no penalty for dropping the gun outside of the COF. A DQ only applies if you pick it up or handle it.

This is being taught in RO classes these days.

Now THIS is interesting, because I saw someone get DQed for this last year at a major match. Outside the course of fire (we were pasting/resetting targets) one of the competitors bumped something, and his gun came out of the holster. He noticed it, and without thinking about it, trapped is against his body with his elbow. (Never touched it with his hand.) The RO DQed him for a dropped gun, and the RM supported it, as they said it was indeed a "dropped gun" that he had "handled".

I see what you mean about the "dropped gun" definition in the appendix---the problem is that in 10.5.14, the rules talk about dropped guns _outside_ the course of fire, too. Of course, the word they use there instead of "handling" is "retrieve"...

So I guess I'm not sure how I'd word that arb if it ever happened to me, as the definition of "handling" (though the word itself contains "hand" ) doesn't say anything about how the firearm is held. Gripping or manipulating (by hand only) makes sense, but "holding"---if you have the gun pinned against your body, isn't that "holding"? (By the current definition, at least?)

Again---I'm not trying to argue against what you are saying. Trapping the gun against your body should _not_ be a DQ, in my own little know-nothing opinion. I'm just saying I'm not sure how you would win that arb given the current wording of "handling" and the word choice ("dropped gun") of 10.5.14. By saying you haven't "retrieved" the gun (as it is only currently trapped) and thus you are have not violated 10.5.14? That still leaves "holding" for having violated 10.5.1....and if the RO/CRO/RM already DQed you for this (hence the reason for the arbitration), I don't see them accepting that you weren't "holding" the firearm just because it wasn't in your hand.

[sperman]

Somewhere there's a thread from a few years ago where the NROI guys talked about pinning the gun against your body vs. "handling." I did a search, but couldn't find it.

[Thomas H]

Somewhere there's a thread from a few years ago where the NROI guys talked about pinning the gun against your body vs. "handling." I did a search, but couldn't find it.

I looked around, but couldn't find anything. Perhaps my search-fu is weak...

[Thomas H]

Somewhere there's a thread from a few years ago where the NROI guys talked about pinning the gun against your body vs. "handling." I did a search, but couldn't find it.

I looked around, but couldn't find anything. Perhaps my search-fu is weak...

...and then, at least, I find something. In which Sherwyn, Drazy, Gary, and George give differing opinions. For example, Sherwyn, Drazy, and Gary think trapping is a DQ, and George doesn't.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113624&hl=trapping%20the%20gun&st=0

So....which is it?

[Singlestack]

IMO, if you trap it, you have handled it. Not very hard to back that up with a rule either.

[Gary Johnson]

Somewhere there's a thread from a few years ago where the NROI guys talked about pinning the gun against your body vs. "handling." I did a search, but couldn't find it.

Here's the definition of 'dropped gun' from Appendix A3:

Dropped Gun (during the course of fire) A condition in which a competitor loses control of their handgun. Loss of control does not require the handgun to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in mid-air.

[Singlestack]

Somewhere there's a thread from a few years ago where the NROI guys talked about pinning the gun against your body vs. "handling." I did a search, but couldn't find it.

Here's the definition of 'dropped gun' from Appendix A3:

Dropped Gun (during the course of fire) A condition in which a competitor loses control of their handgun. Loss of control does not require the handgun to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in mid-air.

We are not talking about during the course of fire (now). We all know thats a DQ.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Singlestack
To clarify

[Skydiver]

I'll add one more bit of confusion to this thread:

What if the gun has the falls out of the holster outside the course of fire, and the shooter sticks a foot out to catch the gun and keep it from hitting the floor? They call for RO assistance at that point to retrieve the gun from the foot. Does the RO congratulate them for their dexterity, followed by issuing a DQ?

[ I mention this because at the indoor range, I saw somebody successfully catch a dropped magazine with his foot. (Maybe he was some kind of hackey sack champ in his younger days.) Additionally, I heard an interesting conversation at lunch was about some people playing with the Kinect version of Fruit Ninja. Lots of arm waving to slash the fruit. A ballerina in the group was not only using her arms to slash at the fruit, but using both legs as well. . She was smoking everybody! ]

[Gary Johnson]

Understood, just clarifying where the discussion came from.

Somewhere there's a thread from a few years ago where the NROI guys talked about pinning the gun against your body vs. "handling." I did a search, but couldn't find it.

Here's the definition of 'dropped gun' from Appendix A3:

Dropped Gun (during the course of fire) A condition in which a competitor loses control of their handgun. Loss of control does not require the handgun to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in mid-air.

We are not talking about during the course of fire (now). We all know thats a DQ.

[Poppa Bear]

To me the key issue here is "What is HANDLING"

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

HANDLE

–verb (used with object)

8.

to touch, pick up, carry, or feel with the hand or hands; use the hands on; take hold of.

Using my arm, leg, or waist to trap the gun before it can fully fall to the ground is not handling, using my hand to trap the gun is. I have had two dropped guns, and both times it was on the ground before I could react to it getting snagged on the prop. I have had several more where the gun took a hit but did not come out of the holster. In all of those cases I placed my hand on the butt of the gun to make sure it was still fully seated and then manipulated the locking lever to make sure it was fully engaged. In one of those cases my placing my hand on the butt was sufficient for the gun to LOCK back in place. It had moved enough to come unlocked but not enough to fall out of the holster.

In the last case where the gun had become unlocked but did not come out of the holster we will say it was a harder hit that started to rock the gun out but slowly enough for my arm to stop it from falling out of the holster. I am not going to lift my arm away from my body and let the gun go down. I am not going to call an RO over and then lift my arm and let it go down. I will call an RO over and let them retrieve the gun from where it is pinned. Because the RO did the initial handling and because I am now under their supervision when the gun is placed back into its holster, there are no grounds for a DQ.

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun. Dropped handguns must always be

retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing

the handgun, place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun bag

or holster. Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside

of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who

retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

[Thomas H]

IMO, if you trap it, you have handled it. Not very hard to back that up with a rule either.

But according to George, that isn't what is being taught in RO classes these days. Specifically:

The RO gives the "Range is clear" command. As the shooter moves to start following the RO, the gun pops out of the holster. The shooter feeling the movement, instinctively reaches down and traps the gun against his body to keep it from falling to the ground. At that point, it's a DQ under 10.5.14.

Technically, no. This is a different scenario altogether.

In your case, the applicable rule is still 10.5.1 IF you handle the gun (see the App A3 definition). If you simply trap it against your body without using your hand, no DQ. Just call for a RO to take care of it. We know shooters instinctively react to the gun starting to fall and it was decided that no DQ should apply in such a case as long as the gun is not being "handled".

See App A3 also for the definition of "dropped gun" and notice that this definition only applies during the COF. That is the key to what I have mentioned here. There is no penalty for dropping the gun outside of the COF. A DQ only applies if you pick it up or handle it.

This is being taught in RO classes these days.

So I'm left with my cluelessness. I'm going to be a range official for a couple of level II and level III matches in the next two months--and while I hope no one drops a gun in any manner at all, I think I'd like to know what exactly I should call.

Outside the course of fire, for some reason not related to a competitor touching the pistol with their hands, an unloaded gun comes out of the holster and is trapped by the competitor against their body, NOT using their hands. They call an RO over to handle and clear it.

What's the call?

My previous experience tells me that is a DQ, and I've seen it happen in large matches before. George, is there any particular ruling or anything you can point to that says this does not qualify as "handling" so I won't have to call it a DQ? When you say "it was decided" who do you mean?

[Singlestack]

Obviously, I disagree with George.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If I trap a gun against my body, how am I not "holding" it? The definition says nothing about hands. IMO, by George's definition, I could walk around with my gun cradled in my arms.

[Poppa Bear]

Obviously, I disagree with George.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If I trap a gun against my body, how am I not "holding" it? The definition says nothing about hands. IMO, by George's definition, I could walk around with my gun cradled in my arms.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1).

5.7.3, 8.4.1, 8.5.1, 10.5.5.1, 10.5.8, 10.5.9,10.5.10 All deal with fingers and trigger guards. The key to all of these rules is allowing the finger to enter the trigger guard. your fingers are part of your hands so as long as your hands are not involved with the pinning then there are no fingers able to access the trigger.

[Singlestack]

Obviously, I disagree with George.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If I trap a gun against my body, how am I not "holding" it? The definition says nothing about hands. IMO, by George's definition, I could walk around with my gun cradled in my arms.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1).

5.7.3, 8.4.1, 8.5.1, 10.5.5.1, 10.5.8, 10.5.9,10.5.10 All deal with fingers and trigger guards. The key to all of these rules is allowing the finger to enter the trigger guard. your fingers are part of your hands so as long as your hands are not involved with the pinning then there are no fingers able to access the trigger.

You are making stuff up.

[Singlestack]

Obviously, I disagree with George.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in handling a firearm) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If I trap a gun against my body, how am I not "holding" it? The definition says nothing about hands. IMO, by George's definition, I could walk around with my gun cradled in my arms.

5.2.1 Carry and Storage Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1).

Unless I just so happened to have dropped it, by George's definition. Then I would merely ask the RO to reholster it for me.

[George Jones]

Obviously, I disagree with George.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If I trap a gun against my body, how am I not "holding" it? The definition says nothing about hands. IMO, by George's definition, I could walk around with my gun cradled in my arms.

Sure, as long as it got there without the involvement of your hands. And if it did end up there magically, I would expect you to call for an RO to deal with it correctly.

The definition of handling is specific enough for me. It involves the hand. The hand is what holds that "finger" thing we hope to keep away from the trigger. Keep the hand away from the gun and the finger is nowhere near the place it needs to stay out of.

Let's not DQ people for what we "think" or "believe" should be a DQ. Let's apply the rule without adding anything to it.

No handling = no DQ.

[Singlestack]

Holding = handling.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If it is pinned against my body, I'm holding it (there). 10.5.1

Where in the definition of "Handling" does it specify the hand?

If I'm on your arb committee, your toast.

[Nik Habicht]

Obviously, I disagree with George.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If I trap a gun against my body, how am I not "holding" it? The definition says nothing about hands. IMO, by George's definition, I could walk around with my gun cradled in my arms.

Common sense would dictate that you needed to handle the gun at some point to get it to the point where you could cradle it.....

.....so I'd dq you for that..... :devil:

[Nik Habicht]

In the last case where the gun had become unlocked but did not come out of the holster we will say it was a harder hit that started to rock the gun out but slowly enough for my arm to stop it from falling out of the holster. I am not going to lift my arm away from my body and let the gun go down. I am not going to call an RO over and then lift my arm and let it go down. I will call an RO over and let them retrieve the gun from where it is pinned. Because the RO did the initial handling and because I am now under their supervision when the gun is placed back into its holster, there are no grounds for a DQ.

There are multiple concerns with a dropped gun: We treat guns as if they are loaded -- hence the whole cased, or holstered or bagged thing, as well as the whole "handling only under supervision of an RO, or at the safe table" thing.....

As ROs, when we encounter a dropped gun, we want to ensure that it is retrieved in the safest manner possible -- i.e that no other competitors or match staff are swept by the muzzle -- and we want to confirm that the gun is empty.....

The primary way that guns go off, is when a finger pulls the trigger.....

There are probably 1700 different scenarios of how guns could conceivably be dropped -- the rules must be able to deal with all of them.....

People have a natural tendency to want to keep things from falling, even after they have dropped them. That tendency can come into conflict with our desire to not have competitors handle their guns, except in limited and controlled circumstances.....

If a competitor does not use his hand or hands to keep the gun from falling, but uses an arm to trap it against the body, or a leg or hip to trap it against a table, and then calls an RO, depending on the specific circumstances, the call could go either way.....

It all depends on the totality of the incident, and requires RO/RM judgment....

[Nik Habicht]

So I'm left with my cluelessness. I'm going to be a range official for a couple of level II and level III matches in the next two months--and while I hope no one drops a gun in any manner at all, I think I'd like to know what exactly I should call.

This one's easy: If during the course of fire, stop the shooter, then take what ever steps are necessary to safely retrieve and clear the firearm. If you are unsure of how a particular gun works, secure it and seek guidance. We don't expect you to be an expert on every gun, we do expect you to think through what is necessary to maintain everyone's safety. There should be no rush....

If between courses of fire and the shooter has retrieved the gun, make the call and inform the RM. If the shooter has not retrieved or handled the gun, see above, and feel free to consult the RM, especially if you're not sure......

You're always allowed to seek guidance from higher up the chain -- I encourage it at matches, and seek it myself when necessary.....

[Singlestack]

Obviously, I disagree with George.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

If I trap a gun against my body, how am I not "holding" it? The definition says nothing about hands. IMO, by George's definition, I could walk around with my gun cradled in my arms.

Common sense would dictate that you needed to handle the gun at some point to get it to the point where you could cradle it.....

.....so I'd dq you for that..... :devil:

Now, how ya gonna DQ a fella for doing jumping jacks?

[George Jones]

Holding = handling.

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating,

holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is

functionally accessible.

Where in the definition of "Handling" does it specify the hand?

If I'm on your arb committee, your toast.

[manipulation, from Latin manipulus handful]

2. manipulate - hold something in one's hands and move it

palm, handle - touch, lift, or hold with the hands; "Don't handle the merchandise"

As to being toast, I hope the ArbCom is an impartial group who reviews the facts, assesses the situation, and rules in accordance with the rulebook.