Why are all calibers scored minor in production?

[Gary Johnson]

First let me offer an apology. I'm sure this has been done to death. I tried a search but couldn't find an answer. I even asked a few old hands. They knew all about the rule but couldn't explain why it exists.

Anyway, I started IPSC a few months ago and was surprised to find that all production is scored minor. Every other division bases minor/major on power factor (grains*fps/1000). In production division anything larger than 9mm seems to magically lose mass/velocity.

This seems counterintuitive and kinda flies in the face of USPSA. It's my understanding that major/minor is a function of a weapon's effectiveness against targets. Major scores higher because a hotter load is:

- more difficult to control.

- more effective.

I got interested in IPSC because of the practical nature of the competition. It's great fun but also serves as a good training regimen. This minor only rule removes a lot of the practicality that I find attractive.

Anyone care to bring a newb up to speed on the rationale behind the minor only rule?

[rtr]

If production followed the same major/minor rules as the other divisions then virtually nobody would shoot 9mm guns (witness how few people shoot 9mm or other minor calibers in limited, open, revo, etc.) because there is a big disadvantage.

One of the reasons production was created was to create a place where people could compete with the increasingly popular off the shelf 9mm handguns from the likes of Glock, Beretta, Sig, etc.. I think originally it was intended as a place for the newbie types to compete, however production has become very popular. Basically it is the only division where you can get top of the line equipment for around $1K for the whole rig and compete with off the shelf cheap 9mm ammo too.

[lynn jones]

the most popular calibers in the world is 9mm. a lot of countries will not let their citizens own any larger calibers.

lynn

[Vince Pinto]

Gary,

The primary reason why Production Division does not recognise Major scoring is that we intentionally wanted to encourage the use of 9mm guns, because 9mm factory ammo is generally easy to obtain all over the world.

One of the many challenges we face these days are airlines which limit the amount of ammo each person can carry onboard a passenger aircraft. As many larger matches require a round count which weighs in excess of airline allowances, competitors can elect to obtain their ammunition at their destination and avoid grief at check-in.

[Gary Johnson]

That all makes sense. Guess I'm reading too much into the word production.

So which is better for a (new to IPSC) shooter with a box-stock 40, production or limited?

[rtr]

So which is better for a (new to IPSC) shooter with a box-stock 40, production or limited?

Assuming the gun meets the production rules I would say you'd be more competitive in production, especially if you're able to use ammo that is loaded to minor PF.

[EricW]

That all makes sense. Guess I'm reading too much into the word production.

So which is better for a (new to IPSC) shooter with a box-stock 40, production or limited?

It depends on who's shooting what at your club. If there's no one competitive shooting production, you should shoot Limited or Lim-10 so at least you'll have somewhere to go in the future as you progress.

[banjobart]

If I could change only one USPSA rule, it would be to score the 40 or 45 major in Production division.

There is no good reason not to in the USA. The 40 is as popular as the 9mm. The 45 is still hugely popular, too. Americans like big everything; big bikes, big trucks, big houses, big tools, big steaks and big calibers.

I hate making special wimp ammo for my 40 Production gun just to keep up with the hot shots and their downloaded 9mm ammo in their long slide guns. This "Minor only scoring" rule just turned Production into another equipment race and reloading contest, no different than Limited or L-10.

You guys are kidding yourselves in regards to the effect of this rule in the USA.

IPSC can keep their rule. I do not care as I shoot USPSA.

[Patrick Sweeney]

If the scoring worked out such that it didn't matter whether you shot Major or Minor (that is, the scoring difference was exactly offset by the recoil difference) I'd agree with Bart.

But it doesn't. As currently scored, it takes an exceptional shooter like Dave Sevigny to shoot Minor and keep up. And he can do so only because at the gM level everyone is shooting so many "A" hits Major/Minor matters oly a little.

If we went to Major/Minor for Production there would be wholesale desertions in the 9mm ranks, as they would perceive (and rightly) that they would have an advantage shooting Major over Minor.

I dread the coming tussle over magazine capacity if the AW Ban does sunset.

[Vince Pinto]

You guys are kidding yourselves in regards to the effect of this rule in the USA.

What exactly is the effect of this rule in the USA?

[Loves2Shoot]

Bart,

Where could 9mm be competetive in? Production is more a class for 9mm than non-single action guns. If you want to shoot your 40 at full power, shoot it in L10. It is practically the same division except for the power factor and silly mags holder/holster placement rules.

[EricW]

Just a little on topic reminder. The questions were: why is Production scored minor and what division should I shoot?

The major/minor issue has been beat to death. Want to get credit for shooting Major PF? Check the Lim-10 box on your scorecard(s). It's free and takes about 3 picoseconds to do. End of debate.

[Gary Johnson]

It's free and takes about 3 picoseconds to do.

Maybe for you race gun guys.

My best time checking the L-10 box is 43 milliseconds and that was in warm weather!

[geezer-lock]

Are we talking about the USPSA G-34 Division?

Hold your fire now!

I shoot one so I'm not kicking. The evolution of the rule book just looks somewhat suspicious to us conspiracy theorists.

Be safe, have fun,

geezer

[Merlin Orr]

Are we talking about the USPSA G-34 Division?

Not everyone in Production shoots a Glock G34 - maybe everyone who ever wins does...

[Vince Pinto]

Are we talking about the USPSA G-34 Division?

This is precisely why IPSC Production Division requires a maximum 5" barrel length and a minimum trigger pull of 5lbs - we didn't want PD to become a "G34 Division".

[Duane Thomas]

God forbid the best equipment should rise to the top.

[ivanhu]

The major/minor issue has been beat to death. Want to get credit for shooting Major PF? Check the Lim-10 box on your scorecard(s). It's free and takes about 3 picoseconds to do. End of debate.

For me the closest range where I could check the Lim-10 box on my scorecard would take approx 12 hours of travel there and the same back. That's apparently a bit longer than just three picoseconds...

[Vince Pinto]

God forbid the best equipment should rise to the top. 

I wholeheartedly agree. The best shooter should rise to the top and, in Production Division, that's David Sevigny, whether he uses a G17 with a 114mm barrel and a 5lb trigger pull or a G34 with a 135mm barrel and a 3lb trigger pull

[Duane Thomas]

No argument there.

[DogmaDog]

Heheheh.

I think there was some desire to promote accuracy over speed for newer shooters in production, so they don't just become hosers. I'm starting to see some seasoned vets try it just for the added challenge of shooting minor, too.

Also, scoring everything minor makes the scoring system a bit simpler, and easier for new shooters to understand.

Ideally, the major/minor system would be tuned such that it was a wash--the scoring benefit of major PF would really be offset by the additional recoil of major PF ammo, and the lower ammo capacity of larger diameter bullets. In reality, shooting major is an advantage for almost everyone.

If you have a choice between shooting against lower PF ammo in production, or against nicer SA triggers in L10...well, pick the division with more people in it, and enjoy the healthier competition.

When you are ready, load your own ammo, and tune it specifically for your division (if that means .40 at 135 PF for production, or 9mm at 170 PF for open, so be it).

Good shooting,

DogmaDog

[pangris]

As a long time shooter new to USPSA, I like that production is a relatively even playing field, with duty type guns emphasized.

I do wish I could shoot a 9mm 1911 with a 5 lb SA trigger, but I'm happy with a G17, too.

Paul

[Vince Pinto]

Paul,

Since you're a newbie, allow me to explain the primary rule of Production Division: No single-action-only ("SAO") pistols.

SAO pistols totally dominate Open, Standard, Modified (and, in the USA, Limited and Limited 10) Divisions, so Production Division was created as a home for non-SAO guns.

[pangris]

Paul,

Since you're a newbie, allow me to explain the primary rule of Production Division: No single-action-only ("SAO") pistols.

SAO pistols totally dominate Open, Standard, Modified (and, in the USA, Limited and Limited 10) Divisions, so Production Division was created as a home for non-SAO guns.

Vince,

Thanks! I figured as much. Would be nice if they had a 5lb minimum regardless of type, but I'm happy with a Glock.

Paul

[slavex]

then you've got my opinion, and I know a few others that share it. If you shoot a calibre that can make major, ie. .40 or .45 then it should make Major, even if you are in Production. Nothing irks me more than the guys that download their .40's to Powderpuff loads whereas us 9mm shooters load to max just to make Minor. But hey that's just me, when I shoot .40 I load it up, when I shoot 9mm I load it up. I don't like these little wimpy "fake" loads.