Iron sights, 1X optics and Evolution

[barrysuperhawk]

If it's only "less Practice" and not a REAL competitive advantage, then why is it we only have this discussion about rifles? Why does any type of dot on a pistol or a shotgun still toss you into open? How is it possible that a red dot is that much of a gamechanger on 2 of our 3 guns, but no big deal on the third? Fiber optic or Ghost ring iron sights on a shotgun don't put you into open, but a Triji RMR will. What about that fancy FN45 that comes with the mini red dot milled into the slide? Is that exactly the same as the same gun with irons?

To me there are 2 distinct points, #1 being the purity of the Heavy Metal class and #2 being the apparent competitive advantage bestowed by a dot. It looks like I am on the losing side here, and I probably will go along with the sheep and find a dot for my rifle.. BAAaaaah

[ericm]

....don't think of it as going along with the sheep.

In an evolutionary sense, you'd be on the cutting edge of creating a new class of SUPERSHEEP!!! (with 1X optics and plasma rifles in the 40 watt range)

[ericm]

....and fully integrated 1X single plane sighting systems for pistols and shotguns

[JeffWard]

on the topic of outdated equipment, ericm still uses a 1100!!!!!!

Trapr

1100s??? There's guys still shooting 1911s! Talk about antique equipment?

LOL

JW

[el pres]

Progressives....

Edited May 14, 2011 by el pres

[Vlad]

Here is a little something though .. Try hitting at 400 yards with a red dot, it kicks my ass mostly because i don't have a good cant indicator, which I can have with scopes or irons. I'm actually considering shooting the longer stages with the irons through the red dot because of it. You can be all mad at red dots, but apparently they have a role. Additionally I've been shooting one in Tac Optics in the last year because where I live most matches will have ONE long range stage, and 6 or more "close up" ones and I shoot better with a dot then a scope under 50yards. If I lived out west where more long range stages where more common I'd probably go back to scope, but in the mid-Atlantic area I don't see why.

[barrysuperhawk]

Here is a little something though .. Try hitting at 400 yards with a red dot, it kicks my ass mostly because i don't have a good cant indicator, which I can have with scopes or irons. I'm actually considering shooting the longer stages with the irons through the red dot because of it. You can be all mad at red dots, but apparently they have a role. Additionally I've been shooting one in Tac Optics in the last year because where I live most matches will have ONE long range stage, and 6 or more "close up" ones and I shoot better with a dot then a scope under 50yards. If I lived out west where more long range stages where more common I'd probably go back to scope, but in the mid-Atlantic area I don't see why.

Well, in truth I have had my issues with longer range shots myself mostly because my FAL with irons isn't exactly a tack driver at that range.

[kellyn]

If it's only "less Practice" and not a REAL competitive advantage, then why is it we only have this discussion about rifles? Why does any type of dot on a pistol or a shotgun still toss you into open? How is it possible that a red dot is that much of a gamechanger on 2 of our 3 guns, but no big deal on the third? Fiber optic or Ghost ring iron sights on a shotgun don't put you into open, but a Triji RMR will. What about that fancy FN45 that comes with the mini red dot milled into the slide? Is that exactly the same as the same gun with irons?

To me there are 2 distinct points, #1 being the purity of the Heavy Metal class and #2 being the apparent competitive advantage bestowed by a dot. It looks like I am on the losing side here, and I probably will go along with the sheep and find a dot for my rifle.. BAAaaaah

Two words: sight radius.

The advantages of the 1X are probably greatest with the pistol given it's very short radius. They are less so with the shotgun although I believe there is an advantage especially when shooting slugs. The advantage with the open shotgun really lies in ammo capacity and loading. With the rifle this advantage is minimized.

That being said, I think the 1X does have the possibility to really having an advantage once we start improving the reticles with BDCs etc but even that will only matter in a handful of matches. Rocky Mtn and Blue ridge, yes. Superstition, no.

[bushmeat]

Was thinking of switching over to irons. Has anybody tried the GG&G MAD sight? It has multiple aperture settings to quickly switch elevation from 200 to 600 yards and supposedly calibrated to 55-62 gr ballistics.

[Chuck Anderson]

If it's only "less Practice" and not a REAL competitive advantage, then why is it we only have this discussion about rifles? Why does any type of dot on a pistol or a shotgun still toss you into open? How is it possible that a red dot is that much of a gamechanger on 2 of our 3 guns, but no big deal on the third? Fiber optic or Ghost ring iron sights on a shotgun don't put you into open, but a Triji RMR will. What about that fancy FN45 that comes with the mini red dot milled into the slide? Is that exactly the same as the same gun with irons?

To me there are 2 distinct points, #1 being the purity of the Heavy Metal class and #2 being the apparent competitive advantage bestowed by a dot. It looks like I am on the losing side here, and I probably will go along with the sheep and find a dot for my rifle.. BAAaaaah

I do think it's an advantage to put a dot on a rifle, although Kurt would disagree. I know for me it's a wash on the pistol whether there is an advantage or not, but I spend a lot of time behind pistol iron sights. On a shotgun I think it's a wash. Long slugs would be a bit quicker, but close clays would probably be faster with a bead.

So if a dot on a rifle is an advantage, why allow it? Because there weren't enough Limited/Iron shooters to really have a division. Heck Trooper at the Ironman has more shooters than the big 3 Gun matches have in Irons. There are a crapload of new AR owners out there after 2008. Many of them bought red dots for their rifles just like they saw on the TV. Give them a place to play. Sorry it's in your place but that's the downside of shooting with the tiniest group of people. The choice for many matches, and this was definitely a consideration when I voted yes on it for USPSA, was either do away with the division for lack of participation or find a way to get some more people to shoot it.

[bigbrowndog]

Chuck you left off this choice: do away with the division that caused all the problems to begin with, T.O.

Trapr

[Chuck Anderson]

I left it off because it's a horrible idea.

[Religious Shooter]