bamf_shadow Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I am starting work on my first ever loads and am getting conflicting information. The load is to consist of HP38 (Hodgdon says 3.9gr min, 4.4gr max), Lane 125gr hard cast LRN bullet, Federal small pistol primer in Blazer/Winchester brass. The conflicting info seems to be OAL. Lee, Hodgdon and Lyman all show different lengths. Can someone help me on this? The intended firearm is an M&P Pro 9. Looking for soft, clean and minor :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeZer Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 In reloading, in general, people tend to load ammo to their own gun's liking. Test barrels companies use along with tested bullets' profiles may and most likely are different in several ways, thus different velocities, pressure, OAL and so on for similar weight bullets. Note, that HP38 is exact same powder as Winchester 231, use this for cross-reference. Also, M&P Pro may have longer barrel (it has 5" barrel) than those test barrels used to compile loading manuals, thus will yeld higher velosity. Ideally, you need to come up with OAL your gun likes first, then test several powder charges starting with min load and make sure you get proper feeding, chambering, slide cycling, ejection and making your power factor (you need a chrono). Personally, I'd recommend to load at least +5 over target power factor, e.g. if you wanna load to PF125, load to PF130. If you are new to reloading, get a hold of ABCs or Reloading book and read it till you understand all basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Power Jack Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 I am starting work on my first ever loads and am getting conflicting information. The load is to consist of HP38 (Hodgdon says 3.9gr min, 4.4gr max), Lane 125gr hard cast LRN bullet, Federal small pistol primer in Blazer/Winchester brass. The conflicting info seems to be OAL. Lee, Hodgdon and Lyman all show different lengths. Can someone help me on this? The intended firearm is an M&P Pro 9. Looking for soft, clean and minor :-) 1.12 -1.3" works well in my Browning Hi Power, but lot of people reder 1.15 - 1.16". Depends on your mags and barrel. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anachronism Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Different bullet profiles require different overall lengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 I will play with the OAL some. Right now I have the die set for 1.125" as that is what Hodgdon lists. I have been trying to get the dies set up without priming or dumping powder but I obviously have too much crimp with the Lee factory crimp die because now my impact pulled can't get these bullets out! I don't have the seating die applying a crimp (as far as I can tell). This isn't as easy as I had hoped, but I will get it just right eventually! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeZer Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) I see people apply too much crimp every day. Some so much that round (brass case) goes into barrel past chamber and not only causes cases stuck but even firing pin won't reach primer - that far the case is in the chamber... All you need is to make sure you have enough crimp for the round to drop in and out of chamber freely, no more. If you seat and crimp in separate stations, it'll make it much easier to make adjustments. My another 0.02 on OAL: You will find it with experience that sometimes you will have to fight to find a good compromise between accuracy of your load and reliability and repeat-ability. You go long - you get good accuracy but inconsistent feeding and sometimes double-feeds. You go short and accuracy suffers and you spike pressure... Reloading is to some degree an art, and to some is science Many 'volume' shooters try to develop/discover a couple of good loads and stick with them, unless they have time, money and itch to experiment. I personally reload so I can shoot more, not for the pure pleasure of reloading process; I'd rather spend extra time at the range than behind the press. It still means I try my best to develop a good quality, reliable and accurate load I will enjoy shooting and be confident in its safety too. Edited May 5, 2011 by CeeZer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Well I have my expander die set to give just enough flare to hold the bullet upright, then I have my seating die backed out pretty far so that it just barely removes some of the flare but won't fit in my chamber. Then I have the factory crimp die set 1/2 turn past where it touches an empty case and it leaves me with a nice even taper. I had it set at 3/4 turn which is too much I think. I am going to measure my chamber and get an idea of my max OAL and make up a few in between to test with. Thanks a ton for the info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeZer Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 When you adjust dies for either seating depth or crimping, the largest step should be 1/8 of a turn, the smaller the steps the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 Ok, got my first 15 loaded. Have a few issues with them, but I think it relates to my scale. It is a Franford Arsenal digital model and I think it isn't quite as accurate as I would like. I got the Pro Auto-Disk to throw a consistant 4.0gr charge, however after I weigh the finished round I sometimes show a bigger difference between the component weights. Anyways, I created a simple spreadsheet to track these rounds. If someone could double-check this before I blow myself up I would appreciate it! 5-5-119mm.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeZer Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 (edited) 1) Don't worry about case length , they are shorter than .754" and you cannot make them longer. Variation in length will cause variation in case weight too, it doesnt matter anyway. Different case manuf. will give you diff case weight too. 2) Total round weight doesn't matter. 3) Make sure OAL is within your target number and powder charge is consistent and what you want it to be. Variations in OAL of .005" are normal and don't matter as long as bullet doesn't hit barrel rifling. I determine max OAL (till bullet hit rifling) and then seat 0.01" deeper making round shorter to make sure I don't hit rifling since bullets are not perfectly same in shape, making target OAL=maxOAL-0.01". Loading ammo for pistol means volume, thus you cannot weigh every bullet and powder charge or to measure OAL on every bullet and adjust every time. There will be discrepancies, just like with best factory ammo, there is no way to make every round perfect since we don't live in idealistic perfect world. This is exactly why chronos show ES and SD (Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation) in bullets velocities when you run them thru a chrono. This is why it is recommended to use quality cases from the same manuf for high level matches - they will be more or less same shape and case volume as opposed to mixed cases. Your bullets have quite normal spread in weight; just make sure you develop a load keeping lightest bullet in mind if you need to make Power Factor for USPSA or IDPA. Oh, almost forgot - depending on your powder measure and powder you use (large flakes, ball etc) your powder charge WILL vary a little. (Those flakes or balls/grains of powder are not the same size; and same volume of smaller flakes will weigh more.) When I adjust powder drop I weigh 10 charges and divide by 10 to figure out what average charge will be Edited May 6, 2011 by CeeZer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 6, 2011 Author Share Posted May 6, 2011 I know that I was being anal about some of my data and I don't plan on obtaining that data for all future loads. My Lee Pro Auto-Disk is throwing a consistent 4.0gr charge with the occasional 3.9 & 4.1 which I figured was par for the course. I was originally shooting for 1.125" OAL, but the last 10 I adjusted for 1.130". If those feed well then I may try 1.135". One interesting observation is that I let 1 Winchester brass slip into the second batch and it weighed significantly less than the blazer. I have a Wilson cartridge gauge that is noticeably tighter than my barrel chamber but all of my rounds fit in both so that is good I guess. It will be a week before I can shoot and chrono these loads and that is killing me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 Still haven't shot these (tomorrow) but I decided to load a few that were a little hotter just in case I got out there and had issues. My original load was 4.0gr HP38 Lane 125gr LRN @ 1.145 OAL. I moved my auto disk from 40 to 43 and threw 4.3gr. Max load according to Hodgdon is 4.4gr so I am debating on weather or not to shoot these (I loaded 10). I was looking for 4.2gr but I don't have the double disk kit and the micromemter charge bar doesn't seem to like these light loadings. If the 4.0gr work then I am happy camper, if not I don't know where to go next... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
71Commander Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 I am starting work on my first ever loads and am getting conflicting information. The load is to consist of HP38 (Hodgdon says 3.9gr min, 4.4gr max), Lane 125gr hard cast LRN bullet, Federal small pistol primer in Blazer/Winchester brass. The conflicting info seems to be OAL. Lee, Hodgdon and Lyman all show different lengths. Can someone help me on this? The intended firearm is an M&P Pro 9. Looking for soft, clean and minor :-) That's the load I loaded up for my M&PL. I shot them Wed and are really soft shooting. I loaded 4.0 gr @ 1.130 oal. A lot softer than the same bullet loaded W/ 3.7 Bullseye or Titegroup. I did not chrono them but suspect that the PF is lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 I found that at 1.130 I was running an average of 1171 FPS, but at 1.143 I slowed down to 1050 FPS giving me an average PF of 130 which is perfect. I have only run 20 of these but had no issues. This weekend I will run a hundred and test for accuracy and cleanliness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 Ok I shot 150 of these loads yesterday without a hitch. A little dirtier than factory ammo but not too bad. Here is my problem so far: I shot from my rest at 25yrds and was getting a 3" group consistently. Now it was 20+ wind gusts but I have shot 1" groups using a factory ammunition in this pistol so I know it can do it. I had a friend run it and he got the same results. Here is the load being used it my M&P 9 Pro 5": Bullet: Lane 125gr LRN Case: Winchester/Blazer mix Primer: Federal SPP Powder: HP38 @ 4.0gr OAL: 1.143" Crimp: 0.379" Average MV over 10rds: 1050 fps measured at 10' Any idears on how to squeeze some more accuracy outta this load? Maybe try seating at 1.135" OAL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder1 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Ok I shot 150 of these loads yesterday without a hitch. A little dirtier than factory ammo but not too bad. Here is my problem so far: I shot from my rest at 25yrds and was getting a 3" group consistently. Now it was 20+ wind gusts but I have shot 1" groups using a factory ammunition in this pistol so I know it can do it. I had a friend run it and he got the same results. Here is the load being used it my M&P 9 Pro 5": Bullet: Lane 125gr LRN Case: Winchester/Blazer mix Primer: Federal SPP Powder: HP38 @ 4.0gr OAL: 1.143" Crimp: 0.379" Average MV over 10rds: 1050 fps measured at 10' Any idears on how to squeeze some more accuracy outta this load? Maybe try seating at 1.135" OAL? For what it's worth I also loaded my first batch of one hundred 125gr LRN Missouri Bullet Co. today; shot with my Sig 226 X-5 Competition Case/s : trail mix of range brass Primer: Wolf SPP Powder: W231 (same powder as HP38) @4.0gr OAL: 1.125 Crimp: 0.376 +- No Chrono data Except for the OAL, it's basically the same round. These rounds were very accurate 3/4 (+-) at 18yds, and fed without a hitch, but were VERY SMOKEY. I'm wondering if anyone knows how to adjust the recipe that might cut down on that. bamf...Maybe changing the OAL will improve the loads accuracy??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamf_shadow Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 I had considered a shorter OAL, but on my first test batches I saw a large increase in velocity with an OAL of 1.125 and 1.130. Those rounds were rather snappy but I didn't test accuracy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootinpete Posted April 16, 2023 Share Posted April 16, 2023 Interesting problem here: 3.9 gr HP-38, 125 gr Missouri Bullet LSWC, OAL 1.075, Blazer cases, CCI spp.(just switched from 500 to CCI 550 as I’m out of # 500 primers) 15 yds, 2” groups with both Kimber & Rock Island. This load shoots fine from my Kimber Micro 9, but getting a lot of “keyholing” when shooting from my Rock Island 9mm 1911??? Any ideas or suggestions??? I’m thinking to adjust OAL or drop powder charge down to compensate for magnum primers?? thanks!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ysrracer Posted April 17, 2023 Share Posted April 17, 2023 To quote our President, let me start with two words, plunk test everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollow-Point Posted April 23, 2023 Share Posted April 23, 2023 On 4/16/2023 at 8:12 PM, ysrracer said: To quote our President, let me start with two words, plunk test everything. Amen to that!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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