9x21 loading-shooting upside-downside

[guidedmiscle]

considering open gun in 9x21. looking for feedback. plus-minuses of this cartridge in todays world.

[gng4life]

Are you serious? Why? My first Open pistol was a 9x21 back in 1997 when it was becoming big news about that and 9x23. They both quickly died and the 38 Super kept it's pace but now 9mm Major seems to be taking some from 38S.

I didn't know they even sold them anymore, where did you see one at?

[guidedmiscle]

Are you serious? Why? My first Open pistol was a 9x21 back in 1997 when it was becoming big news about that and 9x23. They both quickly died and the 38 Super kept it's pace but now 9mm Major seems to be taking some from 38S.

I didn't know they even sold them anymore, where did you see one at?

used I have little experience with open. and havent been around the sport for about 10 yrs. they have lowered th pf and are using 9mm now. trying to figure out if 9x21 ammo and gun ok way to go

[gng4life]

Oh, if you already have it, you can still run it but I would just have it re-barreled to 9mm and then you don't have to worry about brass and finding load data - the two biggest issues with 9x21. Other than that, I used to love it but that was before 38 SC and TJ - which solved the rim issue. However, I went over to 9Major totally and really enjoying it. Can be a little finicky and you are stretching the loads but it's cool so far...good luck!

[wide45]

The reason for 9x21 was to use a 9mm sized gun where 9mm was not allowed, or permitted to make major.

No longer applies in the US, thus 9x21 gets you nothing but more expensive brass.

[mildot1]

Plus side

easier to load than 9mm due to more case capacity

should be a greater choice of powders for the same reason.

Down side

COST OF BRASS

availability of brass.

I have a 9x23, run standard 9mm 90% of the time. I don't even look for brass at a match.

Only run 9x23 at a major match due to the fact that if a round gets in front of the extractor the only way to get it out is shaking or a punch rod. Has happened three or four times.

Having a new open pistol built right now and it will be a 9mm.

Mildot

[Joe4d]

9X21 in practice does not have greater case capacity. Generally it is chambered in small frame guns where the magazine is the limiting factor. Usually around 1.150 So would need the same powders and loads as 9mm.

9X21 brass is the same price as 9X23 at Midway and Starline, even if it wasnt a couple minutes with a case trimmer and 9X23 brass and you can make all you want. Would kinda suck for the 9X23 guys picking up brass though.

[gng4life]

9X21 in practice does not have greater case capacity. Generally it is chambered in small frame guns where the magazine is the limiting factor. Usually around 1.150 So would need the same powders and loads as 9mm.

9X21 brass is the same price as 9X23 at Midway and Starline, even if it wasnt a couple minutes with a case trimmer and 9X23 brass and you can make all you want. Would kinda suck for the 9X23 guys picking up brass though.

I think you misunderstood that statement, 9mm is 9x19mm (roughly 19mm in length), 9x21 (roughly 21mm in length), therefore there is a 2mm length difference thus resulting in greater capacity (volume).

[Yardbird]

But 9x19 and 9x21 are generally loaded to the same OAL resulting in NO increase in capacity.

[George]

Unless you use a 1911 pattern gun you can't load 9x21 any longer than you load 9x19 so the case capacity really is the same for all intents and purposes when you load at the same OAL as 9x19.

Load data is also exactly the same for 9x21 as 9x19.

[gng4life]

That's a negative, I used to load and shoot a 9x21 for years back in the 90's and I did bring out the OAL. However, don't take my word for it, go to the Viht manual and look at a 147 XTP load for them. The 9mm OAL is listed at 1.142 and the 9x21 OAL is listed at 1.161, same bullet.

[George]

That's a negative, I used to load and shoot a 9x21 for years back in the 90's and I did bring out the OAL. However, don't take my word for it, go to the Viht manual and look at a 147 XTP load for them. The 9mm OAL is listed at 1.142 and the 9x21 OAL is listed at 1.161, same bullet.

Listed OAL, schmisted OAL, no difference really. I still shoot 9x21 major, been doing so since the 90's. Use a Glock platform and HAVE to load at same OAL as 9x19 (mag length max in glock is 1.165"). 1.115 on out to 1.165" is typical OAL range for 9x19. you can load 9x19 as long as 1.250 if you use a long bearing surface bullet and it still works fine (used to do this in a 1911 pattern 9mm to get around the old minimum OAL requirement for major 9 USPSA used to have in place). OAL range for 9x21 is exactly the same, 1.115 to 1.165". You can load both cases exactly the same and get exactly the same results.

As I said above, you can load longer than 1.165" OAL IF you use a 1911 (or 2011) gun platform as mag length is no longer limiting you to 1.165". If you use a Glock or other wunder-9 platform then mag lengtth will limit OAL to 1.165" max. 9x21 and the 9x19 provide identical case capacity and load data is exactly the same, end of story here my friend!

In fact, 9x21 and 9x19 are for all intents and purposes the same cartridge. The only reason the 9x21 exists is because of an old law in Italy preventing use of military pistol ammo by civilians (9mm parabellum). 9x21 was introduced to get around this law and is EXACTLY the same ballistically as 9x19. The only reason we used it over here was to get around the USPSA ruling about loaded length of 9x19 brass used for 9major back in the early 90's

[gng4life]

That's a negative, I used to load and shoot a 9x21 for years back in the 90's and I did bring out the OAL. However, don't take my word for it, go to the Viht manual and look at a 147 XTP load for them. The 9mm OAL is listed at 1.142 and the 9x21 OAL is listed at 1.161, same bullet.

Listed OAL, schmisted OAL, no difference really. I still shoot 9x21 major, been doing so since the 90's. Use a Glock platform and HAVE to load at same OAL as 9x19 (mag length max in glock is 1.165"). 1.115 on out to 1.165" is typical OAL range for 9x19. you can load 9x19 as long as 1.250 if you use a long bearing surface bullet and it still works fine (used to do this in a 1911 pattern 9mm to get around the old minimum OAL requirement for major 9 USPSA used to have in place). OAL range for 9x21 is exactly the same, 1.115 to 1.165". You can load both cases exactly the same and get exactly the same results.

As I said above, you can load longer than 1.165" OAL IF you use a 1911 (or 2011) gun platform as mag length is no longer limiting you to 1.165". If you use a Glock or other wunder-9 platform then mag lengtth will limit OAL to 1.165" max. 9x21 and the 9x19 provide identical case capacity and load data is exactly the same, end of story here my friend!

In fact, 9x21 and 9x19 are for all intents and purposes the same cartridge. The only reason the 9x21 exists is because of an old law in Italy preventing use of military pistol ammo by civilians (9mm parabellum). 9x21 was introduced to get around this law and is EXACTLY the same ballistically as 9x19. The only reason we used it over here was to get around the USPSA ruling about loaded length of 9x19 brass used for 9major back in the early 90's

I agree with paragraphs 2 & 3, I knew those a long time ago - just as you did. The fact remains, there is 2mm length difference there and forget about all the loading and what you can do/can't do, mags, etc. - the point I was making is the the case is longer and therefore has more capacity/volume, go back and read the original post...that also helps when you have full cases of powder, such as 3n38, and there are issues with "powder sling". Bottom line, physically - the case has more capacity/volume...Thanks

[Joe4d]

Bottom line the case doesnt have any more usable capacity. We are not using the brass to carry water, we are using it to load bullets, which have to feed in a magazine, What you can and cant do and what your mags will feed is the whole point of shooting.

The OP is considering buying a gun and most guns floating around in 9X21 are Italian guns like Beretta's and small frame tanfoglios, which are pretty much limited to 1.150 OAL, which is why I said in actual use the 9X21 has no increase in capacity over 9X19. Having an extra 2mm of brass is the irrelevant part that needs to be forgotten.

[GrumpyOne]

Bottom line the case doesnt have any more usable capacity. We are not using the brass to carry water, we are using it to load bullets, which have to feed in a magazine, What you can and cant do and what your mags will feed is the whole point of shooting.

The OP is considering buying a gun and most guns floating around in 9X21 are Italian guns like Beretta's and small frame tanfoglios, which are pretty much limited to 1.150 OAL, which is why I said in actual use the 9X21 has no increase in capacity over 9X19. Having an extra 2mm of brass is the irrelevant part that needs to be forgotten.

+1 Keyword being USABLE....9x21 will give you a better seat on the bullet if loading long though...

[George]

Bottom line the case doesnt have any more usable capacity. We are not using the brass to carry water, we are using it to load bullets, which have to feed in a magazine, What you can and cant do and what your mags will feed is the whole point of shooting.

The OP is considering buying a gun and most guns floating around in 9X21 are Italian guns like Beretta's and small frame tanfoglios, which are pretty much limited to 1.150 OAL, which is why I said in actual use the 9X21 has no increase in capacity over 9X19. Having an extra 2mm of brass is the irrelevant part that needs to be forgotten.

Ayup, tried to say it better but couldn't

[George]

That's a negative, I used to load and shoot a 9x21 for years back in the 90's and I did bring out the OAL. However, don't take my word for it, go to the Viht manual and look at a 147 XTP load for them. The 9mm OAL is listed at 1.142 and the 9x21 OAL is listed at 1.161, same bullet.

Listed OAL, schmisted OAL, no difference really. I still shoot 9x21 major, been doing so since the 90's. Use a Glock platform and HAVE to load at same OAL as 9x19 (mag length max in glock is 1.165"). 1.115 on out to 1.165" is typical OAL range for 9x19. you can load 9x19 as long as 1.250 if you use a long bearing surface bullet and it still works fine (used to do this in a 1911 pattern 9mm to get around the old minimum OAL requirement for major 9 USPSA used to have in place). OAL range for 9x21 is exactly the same, 1.115 to 1.165". You can load both cases exactly the same and get exactly the same results.

As I said above, you can load longer than 1.165" OAL IF you use a 1911 (or 2011) gun platform as mag length is no longer limiting you to 1.165". If you use a Glock or other wunder-9 platform then mag lengtth will limit OAL to 1.165" max. 9x21 and the 9x19 provide identical case capacity and load data is exactly the same, end of story here my friend!

In fact, 9x21 and 9x19 are for all intents and purposes the same cartridge. The only reason the 9x21 exists is because of an old law in Italy preventing use of military pistol ammo by civilians (9mm parabellum). 9x21 was introduced to get around this law and is EXACTLY the same ballistically as 9x19. The only reason we used it over here was to get around the USPSA ruling about loaded length of 9x19 brass used for 9major back in the early 90's

I agree with paragraphs 2 & 3, I knew those a long time ago - just as you did. The fact remains, there is 2mm length difference there and forget about all the loading and what you can do/can't do, mags, etc. - the point I was making is the the case is longer and therefore has more capacity/volume, go back and read the original post...that also helps when you have full cases of powder, such as 3n38, and there are issues with "powder sling". Bottom line, physically - the case has more capacity/volume...Thanks

Yes, the case is 2mm longer, BUT it does NOT have any more "useable" capacity PERIOD

And again, load data (OAL and charge weight) for 9x21 and 9x19 are exactly the same because they are the same cartridge, just different in length for legal reasons, not for ballistic reasons.

Sorry, but again, the actual fact of the matter here is that there is no extra capacity to be had in the 9x21 case compared to a 9x19 case. The only actual increase for 9x21 over 9x19 is in case to bullet bearing surface

[guidedmiscle]

Thanks guys I appreciate the imput

Can you run 9x19 in a 9x21 chamber

[George]

Thanks guys I appreciate the imput

Can you run 9x19 in a 9x21 chamber

Yes.

But I would probably reserve this for practice ammo as there is the possibility of light primer strikes and rounds slipping off the extractor and getting stuck in front of it. Basically, the extractor is what is holding the 9x19 round in place for the firing pin hit instead of the case mouth indexing on the chamber like it ought to in the correct chambering for that case length. Quite a few folks get 100% function this way so don't assume you will get occasional malf's until you test and see.

[gng4life]

That's a negative, I used to load and shoot a 9x21 for years back in the 90's and I did bring out the OAL. However, don't take my word for it, go to the Viht manual and look at a 147 XTP load for them. The 9mm OAL is listed at 1.142 and the 9x21 OAL is listed at 1.161, same bullet.

Listed OAL, schmisted OAL, no difference really. I still shoot 9x21 major, been doing so since the 90's. Use a Glock platform and HAVE to load at same OAL as 9x19 (mag length max in glock is 1.165"). 1.115 on out to 1.165" is typical OAL range for 9x19. you can load 9x19 as long as 1.250 if you use a long bearing surface bullet and it still works fine (used to do this in a 1911 pattern 9mm to get around the old minimum OAL requirement for major 9 USPSA used to have in place). OAL range for 9x21 is exactly the same, 1.115 to 1.165". You can load both cases exactly the same and get exactly the same results.

As I said above, you can load longer than 1.165" OAL IF you use a 1911 (or 2011) gun platform as mag length is no longer limiting you to 1.165". If you use a Glock or other wunder-9 platform then mag lengtth will limit OAL to 1.165" max. 9x21 and the 9x19 provide identical case capacity and load data is exactly the same, end of story here my friend!

In fact, 9x21 and 9x19 are for all intents and purposes the same cartridge. The only reason the 9x21 exists is because of an old law in Italy preventing use of military pistol ammo by civilians (9mm parabellum). 9x21 was introduced to get around this law and is EXACTLY the same ballistically as 9x19. The only reason we used it over here was to get around the USPSA ruling about loaded length of 9x19 brass used for 9major back in the early 90's

I agree with paragraphs 2 & 3, I knew those a long time ago - just as you did. The fact remains, there is 2mm length difference there and forget about all the loading and what you can do/can't do, mags, etc. - the point I was making is the the case is longer and therefore has more capacity/volume, go back and read the original post...that also helps when you have full cases of powder, such as 3n38, and there are issues with "powder sling". Bottom line, physically - the case has more capacity/volume...Thanks

Yes, the case is 2mm longer, BUT it does NOT have any more "useable" capacity PERIOD

And again, load data (OAL and charge weight) for 9x21 and 9x19 are exactly the same because they are the same cartridge, just different in length for legal reasons, not for ballistic reasons.

Sorry, but again, the actual fact of the matter here is that there is no extra capacity to be had in the 9x21 case compared to a 9x19 case. The only actual increase for 9x21 over 9x19 is in case to bullet bearing surface

I agree with "usable" but that is not what the issue was, can we all agree the case has more volume by about 2mm??

Official overall length of 9x19 - 1.169, official for 9x21 - 1.171 - in my book, that is not "exactly" the same.

About the "no extra capacity", please contact Vihtavuori and advise them that there manuals are wrong if that's the case:

Vihtavuori Loading Manual - Ed 6

9x19

147 HP/XTP Hornady 29,0 1.142 3N37 0,30 4.7 298 979 0,33 5.1 321 1052

9x21

147 HP-XTP Hornady 29,5 1.161 3N37 0,32 4.9 310 1016 0,34 5.3 329 1079

I'm out...