Is it legal to change calibers in limited div?

[tazdevils610]

Can I put a 40S&W bbl in my Glock 20 and shoot in Limited/ limited-10 division? The reason I'd want to switch, would be for cheaper factory ammo.

Thanks In Advance

Richard

[PaulW]

Sure, no problems there.

Now if you were to start a match with the 10mm and then decided to switch to the .40 half way through, you would need the MD approval.

[ErikW]

Nope.

Changing caliber from the factory standard is specifically not allowed.

Now if you were to change the caliber of what is essentially the same gun/frame, such as a Glock 17 (9x19) and a Glock 22 (.40S&W), I don't think there would be a problem. (Though technically it's not legal, what's the point if they are otherwise identical?)

However, a large frame G20 is a whole different gun than a small frame G22.

Wait a minute, didn't John Amidon make a ruling or clarification as to what constitutes a caliber change? 10mm and .40S&W are the same diameter "caliber," but not the same cartridge "caliber." And the Limited division rules differentiate between caliber and cartridge elsewhere. I retract my "nope" and add "hell if I know."

[Patrick Sweeney]

Practical answer: at the club level, go ahead and do it. It is unlikely any one will even notice, less care. If you plan to take said gun to a State, Area or the Nationals, get approval in writing.

[Rufus The Bum]

I would be tempted to say it is NOT legal because the G20 is chambered in 10mm, not .40 I agree with Patrick, you probably wouldn't catch any slack at the local level, but an Area or higher, it might not hurt to go straight to NROI for clarrification.

[PaulW]

So if I had a 1911 in .45 acp and had a top end built in .40 cal it would no longer be legal? HUH?

[Nik Habicht]

Paul,

That seems to be the big conundrum in USPSA right now: 1911s have been built by so many people in so many different permutations that you can do just about anything. Glocks are a different story, because the frame sizes are model/caliber specific. Amidon already told me I couldn't use a Bar-Sto built 6" top end on a G21, even if Bar-Sto cranks out more than 500, because Glcok doesn't offer the 21 in a six inch version. They do offer a 9 and a .40 in six inch length, byut not the .45. I can't make major in limited with a nine, I won't shoot a Glock .40, and my six inch .45 can play in open only. This Glock shooter would like division equipment rules relaxed to the point where what's legal to build on a 1911 frame is legal to build on any frame, as long as the parts are commercially available to anyone with the same amount of cash....

[ErikW]

Paul, 'zactly. Say you had a, um, SIG (?) 1911 that's only (?) available in .45. You can't put a .40S&W top end on it and run it in Ltd or L10. Everybody knows SIGs or Valtros or Auto-Ordnances or whatever (?) weren't made in .40; it's clearly an illegal caliber change.

Say you had a, um, Springfield 1911 in .45. They make the same model in .40S&W. You convert it to 40 and, though it doesn't meet the letter of the law, nobody would know without running the serial # and nobody would care anyway. It's not like you built something unique when the Springfield .40s are available over the counter.

[tazdevils610]

Thanks for all the replys! E-Mailed John Amidon for an official response, here is his answer:

Hi Ricahrd,

The rules state:

Changing caliber from the factory standard is specifically not allowed.

The only way this could be done, is if Glock offers the same model in

a 40S&W, or you change the top end as the slide indicates the model

number.

John.

Thanks again

Richard

[MoNsTeR]

Well then what's the caliber of a bare frame? I mean, Caspian has never sold complete guns right, so what's the "factory original" caliber of a Caspian widebody Limited gun? And how on earth is TGO's Limited gun legal if Springfield has never sold a hi-cap .40 (which, to my limited knowledge, they have not)?

[shred]

This is one where I strongly disagree with Amidon. The dictionary definition of "Caliber" is the diameter of the hole in the barrel. We score the diameter of the hole in the target. Who cares what the chambering of that barrel is, so long as it presents projectiles at an appropriate PF and within safe pressure levels?

Check 5.2.2.

5.2.2 The minimum caliber for handguns to be used in IPSC competitions

is 9mm (.354 inches)

US 5.2.2 The minimum cartridge for handguns to be used in competition

is 9 X 19.

Now, on the same page of the rules

US 5.2.6.1 The substitute handgun satisfies the requirements of the

declared Division and is of the same type, action, caliber,

and type of sights as the handgun the competitor used to

start the competition.

A fluke? Typo? Let's look at 9.1.4.2:

US 9.1.4.2 It is the range officer’s responsibility to see that all targets

are taped after each competitor. In the event that a target is

missed and not taped, if more hits are on the target than

required and they are all of the same caliber, only the highest

scoring specified number of shots may be scored. When

the hits are of different calibers, only the hits of the competitor’s

caliber will be scored. If the competitor has a miss,

and there are hits from a larger caliber on the target, then

the benefit of doubt should go to the competitor and a

reshoot issued.

Are they saying that if you shoot a target with a .40 after it has untaped 10mm hits on it that the RO is supposed to separate them out???? I don't think so.

Ok, so maybe they mixed the terms together?? Then how about Appendix E

Limited Division

Minimum cartridge 9x19mm

Production guns only Yes

a ) Minimum caliber is 9mm.

b ) Minimum caliber for major power factor is 10 mm (.40 inches).

...

e) Changing caliber from the factory standard is specifically not allowed.

The rules writers knew what they were writing. If they didn't, .40 S&W would score Minor in Limited (see b, above). Amidon's over his bounds.

The defense rests.

[GvU]

Just wondering if anything is going to change with the new USPSA rulebook.

IPSC rulebook latest edition (2004, Januari, Appendix D2, Standard division) leaves al that free (pick / assemble what ever you like) and just limits to calibers (as indicated previously), restrictions on size (box), no porting (slides may be ported, not the barrel), no comps, no optics.

John

[ErikW]

USPSA divisions always differ from IPSC divisions <sigh> and I wouldn't expect that to change this time around.

[ivanhu]

USPSA divisions always differ from IPSC divisions <sigh> and I wouldn't expect that to change this time around.

Well - it'd be a suicide for the USPSA BOD to fully adopt the IPSC divisions, and IPSC just doesn't like some of the limited regulations... and don't even mention the L10.

However - what wrong it does? Most of the USPSA limited guys shoot only on USPSA matches; the IPSC standard division equipment AFAIK fully complies the limited rules; those few USPSA members who shoot in other countries have to do but a few adjustments (and in USA, even buying just one more gun is not that big a problem at all) - so who cares?

[Vince Pinto]

USPSA divisions always differ from IPSC divisions <sigh> and I wouldn't expect that to change this time around.

Erik,

Actually at one stage last year, John Amidon and I were looking at whether we could somehow bring Standard and Limited together, and it's really not that difficult to do, given a bit of mutual compromise, but the overall consensus was that the USPSA Divisions would not be part of our rules work, so the matter didn't even reach the table.

However since you mentioned it "the plan" might've gone something like this:

1. Limited would use the IPSC box but guns would be measured without the magazine inserted. The only guns which may have a problem would be some 6" models and those with huge magwells, but I don't know how many people would be affected, which is always our primary concern with divisional changes.

2. Standard would adopt the 140mm magazine rule. This means the "rest of the world" would probably want to "upgrade" their 126mm (?) magazines to the new length, and I guess "+N" basepads would generally do the trick, but not in all cases.

3. Limited would adopt the Standard Division "If it fits the box, anything goes except ports, comps and optics" concept, and this would greatly simplify Limited and increase the number of guns which would comply (such as the one which is the subject of this thread).

Anyway, as I said, the matter never reached the table, but it was kinda exciting discussing it for a while.

[Flexmoney]

Thanks for all the replys! E-Mailed John Amidon for an official response, here is his answer:

Hi Ricahrd,

The rules state:

Changing caliber from the factory standard is specifically not allowed.

The only way this could be done, is if Glock offers the same model in

a 40S&W, or you change the top end as the slide indicates the model

number.

John.

Thanks again

Richard

40 and 10mm ARE THE SAME caliber.

And, that is how the rule reads. (caliber)

I emailed Amidon a year ago and pointed this out. Thus, it is legal to shoot 40S&W out of a G20. (you haven't changed the "caliber")

Nik, that doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like you have some signals crossed with JA. The rule reads "gun or components".

Folks, you gotta realize that Amidon gets tons of these clarification questions. I don't think he has time to dig into each one extensively. When you ask his opinion...make sure to include all the info that you can.

[Nik Habicht]

Kyle,

He based his no go response on the fact that Glock doesn't offer the the 21 in a six inch version, and they don't offer an optional 6 inch top end either. His take was that all the parts had to be available from Glock, before any of the aftermarket stuff would be legal.....

When I find some time, I'll draft a letter to the BODs....

[TDean]

I'm with Flex.

As long as I'm shooting a .40 cal bullet from a gun that was produced to fire a .40cal bullet I certainly haven't changed calibers.

[Flexmoney]

Kyle,

He based his no go response on the fact that Glock doesn't offer the the 21 in a six inch version, and they don't offer an optional 6 inch top end either. His take was that all the parts had to be available from Glock, before any of the aftermarket stuff would be legal.....

When I find some time, I'll draft a letter to the BODs....

Nik,

In my opinion, Amidon is mistaken.

Likely a miscommunication of some sort (I hope).

[tazdevils610]

Thanks to all!!

Flexmoney, Shred I e-mailed back to Amidon for clarification and pointed out that 10 mm & 40 S&W are the same caliber. His response was that is ok to shoot 40S&W in a Glock 20. I guess my first question wasn't clearly stated.

Thanks Again.

Richard

[Flexmoney]

Cool.

Amidon usually gets it right, but you often will want to point out all the small details...there is just no way he could possibly be expected to keep on top of all this stuff by himself. (think of how many different types of guns and such are out there)

Shooting 40 in the G20 is the way to go from a reloading standpoint (for many). I know it allow$ fund$ to be freed up that can now be used to go to matches. (for me, the biggest expense of 10mm over 40 would be switching the 650 over to run large pistol...and then there is brass.)

[jonptoms]

Thanks to all!!

Flexmoney, Shred I e-mailed back to Amidon for clarification and pointed out that 10 mm & 40 S&W are the same caliber. His response was that is ok to shoot 40S&W in a Glock 20. I guess my first question wasn't clearly stated.

Thanks Again.

Richard

Could you include the actual email conversation here please? I'm specificially interested if it is legal (and what division) you can shoot a G20 with a 40S&W barrel by Federal arms.

Thanks

[Flexmoney]

I didn't save the email (from last year), but we put a KKM 40 barrel in a G20. And, that is what I asked Amidon about before we bought it (the barrel).

We shoot it in Limited and Limited 10. Of course, it would be legal for Open.

Amidon and I pondered about it and Production..but I don't recall either of us coming to an opinion. (He was off to some match/meeting and was going to be out fo town for a number of days.)

I don't know that the G20, shooting 40, would run very well with Minor loads anyway. We have our with a pretty light recoil spring...any lighter, and I don't think it would run like a Glock.

BTW, my girlfriend shoots the G20. Major power factor. She likes it. She doesn't like my G35 at Major. (though she hasn't shot my G35 for a long time)

[tazdevils610]

jonptoms: You can shoot a Glock 20 in Limited or Limited-10 with a 40S&W conversion barrel. E-mail follows:

Hi Richard,

If you had mention the caliber of the gun in the beginning

I would have told you it was OK, you are corrent in what

you state.

John

> I'm not changing calibers (10 mm & 40 S&W are both . 401 caliber) just cartridge length. Would it not be the same as a revolver shooter using 38s in a 357mag ? Or changing an 9 mm to 38 super, or to 38 super comp. Any clarification would be helpful.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Richard

Hope this help jonptoms.

Richard

[shred]

Cool.. this avoids a whole host of problems with the .355 guns (Super, SuperComp, Lapua, TJ, 9x19, 9x21, 9x23, 9x25, 357 Sig, etc), specifically the 'replacement guns' section.