cletus9mm Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Do the two guns have identical spring packages, firing pin stop geometry, hammers, struts, MS caps, and slide weights? If not, it may be more just a feel thing based on the differences, and not the fit of the slide. Slide speed is an often quoted, little understood, thing and the gun is going to cycle in nearly the same amount of time (something like .006) with any reasonable combination, that it's really outside the ability of human perception to pick up on differences....i.e was that .0055 or .006? I'll take a tighter fit as long as it's smooth....tight also keeps gunk out. R, Springs - Same Firing Pin stop geometry - GI one is loose hammers and struts - same MS caps - same slide weights - both stock full round top non-lightened slides (GI carbon steel, DW stainless), haven't measured slide weights to verify The GI has a Ti firing pin, don't know DW firing pin material A friend recently had his Les Baer NP3 coated and he thought the gun felt relatively sluggish afterwards. NP3 has a measureable thickness like any other electroless nickel Teflon finish. you say that your firing pin stop is loose on your GI. i believe the question about the fps was geometry. i believe what was meant by this is the shape of the fps or radius on the bottom comparing one gun to the next. some 1911's have almost a squared off fps and some have quite the radius. the action of the slide/fps rolling over the hammer really has a pronounced effect on the feel of a 1911. if one is almost square and the other has a big radius i would guess that the difference you are feeling is from this area and not so much the slide to frame fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBruin Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 I see, I'll have to check the FPS geometry tonight on the dan wesson. I'm 95% sure the GI FPS has a chamfered bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shay1911 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Well, once again my question was more relating to slide dynamics during recoil and not accuracy and cosmetics. The lubrication in a tight slide will have a different shear stress characteristics than lube in a loose fitting slide. That will make them feel different during recoil for a given lube. BTW, I’m not sure I buy the tighter guns are more consistent therefore more reliable argument given that just about every modern combat handgun has a relatively loose slide/frame fit (not to mention the old military issue 1911). Let me try... Let's say gun X, the tight gun, has very tight tolerances. The frame holds the slide, the frame holds the slide stop, the slide stop holds the barrel, the slide holds the barrel, all in a consistent predictable spot, due to the tight tolerances. Gun Y, the loose gun, has a frame to slide that dance all over the place. How are you going to have a consistent barrel lock up with gun Y? Yes, loose guns cycle faster, less friction resistance. No doubt in my mind. Tight guns absorb some of the recoil in their friction, making them seem sluggish. That is overly tight though. A properly fit gun will slide back and forth like it was on rails. Again, we are talking slide to frame fit, not barrel fit. Most guns are hard to unlock because of barrel fit, not slide to frame fit. I venture to guess that your Dan Wesson has a tight barrel fit and a proper slide to frame fit. They probably did so to enhance accuracy. Most people are not IPSC shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Just because the barrel wedges inbetween the slide and the frame don't mean the slide to frame fit is tight. Take the barrel out of the equation. Put the slide on the frame and check the side-to-side and up/down play. You'll see that Baers, Browns, Wilsons, and a host of others are pretty sloppy. They are tighter than a production Colt or Springer, but not anywhere as tight as a properly fitted 1911, i.e. where the slide and the frame are hand fitted from oversize parts. Springfield Custom guns are made that way. They machine the frame rails to fit the slide, then lap the two together. The result is a near zero clearance assembly that is super smooth. And it stays that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Just because the barrel wedges inbetween the slide and the frame don't mean the slide to frame fit is tight. Take the barrel out of the equation. Put the slide on the frame and check the side-to-side and up/down play. You'll see that Baers, Browns, Wilsons, and a host of others are pretty sloppy. They are tighter than a production Colt or Springer, but not anywhere as tight as a properly fitted 1911, i.e. where the slide and the frame are hand fitted from oversize parts. Springfield Custom guns are made that way. They machine the frame rails to fit the slide, then lap the two together. The result is a near zero clearance assembly that is super smooth. And it stays that way. Should I laugh or cry? Pretty sloppy is a description I have never heard or used on any of the guns you list from the custom/semi custom lines above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I don't care if laugh, cry, or poop yourself. I have personally measured .050" side-to-side play in the front part of the rails of one of my Baers with the slide out of battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
01G8R Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) rhyrlik I'm not surprised you have side to side clearance when out of battery. I'm not sure who makes Baer slides, but Caspian and STI slides are cut so that there is more side to side clearance when the slide is out of battery. According to Gary Smith at Caspian this is to improve reliability and cycling. If you look down the frame rail slot in the slide there is a visible step in the slot right in front of where the frame rails sit when the slide is in battery. How is the fit when in battery? Edited February 3, 2011 by 01G8R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aircooled6racer Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Hello: When it is out of battery who cares. When it is locked up what is it like? Thanks, Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 rhyrlikI'm not surprised you have side to side clearance when out of battery. I'm not sure who makes Baer slides, but Caspian and STI slides are cut so that there is more side to side clearance when the slide is out of battery. According to Gary Smith at Caspian this is to improve reliability and cycling. If you look down the frame rail slot in the slide there is a visible step in the slot right in front of where the frame rails sit when the slide is in battery. How is the fit when in battery? Much less in battery, about half that, but still too much for my taste. My Springers on the other hand have no play out of battery and a teeny bit while in battery. They are 100% reliable. For example, they have no problem feeding/ejecting H&G 130's on top of 3.5grs of Bullseye, 1.166" OAL. My P210 gas none in or out of battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Hello: When it is out of battery who cares. When it is locked up what is it like? Thanks, Eric I care. It is pretty easy to make clearances excessive on purpose to make assembly easier. I don't think this is appropriate when you're charging $2-3K for a supposedly hand-built pistol. It is also pretty easy to say that this and that is normal while this and that does not occurr on other pistols. It is unacceptable to say that a near zero clearance gun will be unreliable when Springfield Custom builds and sells them to the FBI SWAT team for tactical deployment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Rob Leatham recommends a tight slide, so I'll take his word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
818-DVC Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Rob Leatham recommends a tight slide, so I'll take his word for it. I'm with Eric in this one. If I heard TGO claimed that chicken fried steak & gravy makes him the champion he is, I'd eat 3 squares a day of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 5, 2011 Share Posted February 5, 2011 Rob Leatham recommends a tight slide, so I'll take his word for it. I'm with Eric in this one. If I heard TGO claimed that chicken fried steak & gravy makes him the champion he is, I'd eat 3 squares a day of it. What would you do if he told you he practiced 8 hours a day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I don't care if laugh, cry, or poop yourself. I have personally measured .050" side-to-side play in the front part of the rails of one of my Baers with the slide out of battery. Wow, .050" is alot! I have an old Colt Government Model that was made in 1913 that is very loose and only has .015" lateral and .030" vertical movement between slide and frame. each time you shoot it, you can feel the slide moving all around (like it is bouncing up and down on the frame). The barrel locks up tight in the slide so the gun still shoots reasonably accurate. Don't get me wrong, you wouldn't want to take it to Camp Perry, but I have shot several Man on Man plate matches with it. My Wilson CQB on the other hand, has less than .001" lateral movement between side and frame and feels like it is on ball bearings. I believe it is properly fitted. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Rob Leatham recommends a tight slide, so I'll take his word for it. I'm with Eric in this one. If I heard TGO claimed that chicken fried steak & gravy makes him the champion he is, I'd eat 3 squares a day of it. What would you do if he told you he practiced 8 hours a day? I would WISH I could practice that much too. Mainly talking about how a gun is put together, though. That advice i CAN follow. Does he really practice that much? I think my "productive" practice time at the range would end right around 4 hours! Perhaps even that would be pushing it a bit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
818-DVC Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I can't even afford the time to dryfire practice albeit live practice. Matches became practice time & i don't really shoot that much anymore. There was a time where I practiced 2-4 hours 4-6 days weekly. I'm more into the mechanical side now, and make way less money with 2 jobs. The garage is 10' away. Already bought my tools. The expense is parts & endmills, cutters etc (particularly when I hack on stuff) haven't seen a range since thanks giving.. Must of saved a thousand bucks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 It is unacceptable to say that a near zero clearance gun will be unreliable when Springfield Custom builds and sells them to the FBI SWAT team for tactical deployment. Uh, I wouldn't go using this as proof of anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briansea2 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) When he builds one that is badly out of spec(very loose) He has a standard answer....well...it wont run hot Jim yea cause it will not run long enough to get hot Edited February 8, 2011 by briansea2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik S. Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I've heard a few reports of some lower end SA's that the local police were issued here. None of them were good reports. That said, I AM a fan of SA's higher end stuff. The TRP's are nice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 All this disagreement I think the important thing is that the more looser fit guns (I got a "A" in college english can't remember when that was) have more room to shove slide glide in which in turn helps provide this forum for a place to continue to disagree buy more glide, a loose gun somewhere will thank you, so will your snug one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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