abn-rgr Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Im scratching my head over the 3GN rules. I know those guys dont check here much, so maybe someone else can explain what they were thinking. If you come in 20th out of 200 that is top 10%. If you come in 3rd out of 10, that is top 30%. The way the new rules are written, you will place higher by being 3rd out of 10. Does that make sense to anyone??? You could basically suck and shoot 3 matches in HM and probably make the top 50 (no offense to HM guys). Someone help me out and explain it so it makes sense or are the 3GN guys smokin the good stuff???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Its their way to "push" more competitors in these different divisions rather then having everyone shooting Scope-Tact is my guess. So if you already shot your min of 3 matches in Tact-scope and didn't place where you want you could try to switch division and try your luck there. Edited January 25, 2011 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 It’s their way to "push" more competitors in these different divisions rather then having everyone shooting Scope-Tact is my guess. So if you already shot your min of 3 matches in Tact-scope and didn't place where you want you could try to switch division and try your luck there. They are going to alienate the majority of the TO guys.....who are a majority of 3 gun competitors....to put more people in a couple other divisions???? Still doesnt make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomfab Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 3G Nation is great for the sport but this new scoring method is unfortunate. They won't be getting all the best shooters for the championship series. Lots of excellent shooters in that place high, percentage-wise, in tac ops and open will be left out. If a dude shoots three of the qualifying matches in the heavy divisions, he's basically guaranteed a spot in the top 50 even if he blows it every time and ends up at the bottom of every match. Since you only have to shoot 3 of the 9 eligible matches, there will be a huge glut of heavy shooters taking tons of the spots from the tac ops and open guys. It's really disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 as opposed to alienating the rest of the players in the other divisions?????? Let them do what they want, if it works,.........GREAT!!! if it doesn't they can change, last year it was a TO favored set up, with regard to pretty much everything, including the finals, and shoot offs. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 as opposed to alienating the rest of the players in the other divisions?????? Let them do what they want, if it works,.........GREAT!!! if it doesn't they can change, last year it was a TO favored set up, with regard to pretty much everything, including the finals, and shoot offs. Trapr You cant honestly say the new rules arent a disadvantage to TacOptics.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 What I am truly tired of hearing is how we "can't" do anything to TO division because its the most participated division, yet there seems to be no problem at all with dissing the other divisions, most of the people shooting TO do not recall that it came from the "most participated" division, and consequently that division lanquishes!!! This year new life has been given to it, and it seems to be doing well, but it pains me that the modification had to take place so that we could get more participants. Last year 3GN, decided to utilize TO equipment for everything, So who do you think had to adapt to the different equipment, All the other divisions!!!!! Do you think the outcomes would have remained the same if competitors had to shoot an Iron sight rifle in the finals??? or load the SG, or shoot a pump, or a dot sight on the handgun, or load the SG with speed tubes???????? Can you honestly say that the outcomes would have remained the same, personally what it tells me is that the competitors in the other divisions adapted very easily to other shooting systems, which from what I hear about the "new" rules, you better start practicing with other division equipment if you want to do well. As for the new rules favoring the other divisions,.........I'll rephrase a comment that was told to an Iron sight shooter, by a major match director, "why would you be stupid enough to shoot TO, if its a disadvantage" Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomfab Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Trapr, I think you are mixing to different issues together. The idea of using pump shotguns, or open pistols, or iron sighted rifles in shoot-offs is a great one. I would think that this would spice things up and the vast majority of shooters in all divisions would support it. The issue at hand is selecting the best shooters and ranking them accordingly. There is no 100% fair way to do this and we all know life isn't fair. The most fair way is to chose by percentage in division. The new method proposed rewards small divisions to a extraordinary extent. When a guy could literally sign up for HM, shoot one stage and go home and place last, let's say 10th place. He gets more points that the guy that busted his butt for years to truly earn an 11th place finish in tac optics at a major match. It just isn't rewarding the right people. I'm trying to be as objective as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Im with you Trapr, bring on the tac irons in shoot offs, they need to mix it up. Last year was too predictable. The guy who finished rifle first won the shootoff every time I can remember. That is a huge disadvantage to the iron shooters who had to use a scope every time. I cant remember an iron shooter winning a shootoff. Correct me if Im wrong there. I think its great that the other divisions are "coming back". I just think the new rules, as they are written, are going to alienate a lot of people. Lets face it, I wont stop shooting TO because of this rule. That being said, I also wont go out of my way to shoot a "3GN" match just so I can be ranked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Shoot off w/ iron sights, 8" plates, 200 yards. Of course, 3GN may need to pick up Black Hills in addition to Federal to be able to afford the ammo for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 3 gun nation does not care if it gets the best shooters in the shoot off. They care about making an entertaining show. Bringing shooters from different groups might be more entertaining than just pulling all of the competitors from TO. Just be happy that achieving their goals in this case will benefit the sport we enjoy. They supply those big cardboard checks, they pick the rules, if you don't like the rues don't play. I do like the iron sights, pump shotgun, and single stack idea for the shoot offs, sounds somewhat familiar...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 How I feel is, I like love to shoot, and I play by the rules. It's not my game, but I like to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) I don't think I mixed up the ideas, but I may have gone off on a slightly direction, my whole thought was "its about time TO competitors got to see the crap that other divisions have to put up with" its not nice that anyone has to play on a tilted arena but some of us have been doing it for a long time, I'm not saying its the competitors its the rule makers, MD's, Presidents, BoD's, etc. I think 3GN has put a lot of thought into it and gotten a lot of input from people and we should let them run their event. As for life not being fair, thats a bunch of crap!!! life is very fair, you get out of it what you put into it!!! people make life unfair by trying to get more than they deserve!!!! thats it for my soapboxing...................I"m out!!!! Trapr Edited January 26, 2011 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Whatever, the rules will probably change before the year is out anyway, like last year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Their game, their rules. Isn't it SOP for 3 gunners to just read the rules and exploit them for advantage to the best of your ability? How is this different? Sounds like the exploitation has already begun. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 I shouldnt have to change divisions just to be competitive, just like TI guys shouldnt have to change divisions just to have a recognized division. Isnt this what all the small divisions complain about??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Reminds me of talking to a friend as he set up a match. Every stage was 6 or more targets in clusters with no place to reload for the SS, L10 or Revolver shooters without a flat footed stop and waste time...... I suggested we break it up a little to give the "other guys" a chance to be on a little more even footing. His response - "F***em", they can buy a Limited gun. Seems to be what a lot of people are saying here. If they don't shoot what I shoot.... "Qu’ils mangent de la brioche" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufDog Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) I have some thoughts on the issue. I'd like to say up front, I'm going to shoot anyway & its going to be great. Honestly, percentage is the way to go. It is absolutely the best option. I'm all about all the divisions & dont care who shoots what, but everybody ought to get their effort accurately reflected. The reason the sport is getting so popular is tac optics and open. That's where all the product innovation is. That is also where tons of the sponsorships come in. Vortex, Leupold, FNH, etc. Shoving people towards divisions they don't want to shoot is a bad idea. It in turn hurts sponsors that keep the sport going. There sure ain't much of a sponsor base to draw from for crusty-ass 200 year old M1A's that lots of the HM guys say you have to have if you want to win HM. (CMP gun prices are going to go through the roof!) It'd be like USPSA shoving the revolver division down everyone's throat. We all like 3GN getting our sport mainstream, its cool, it helps. One thing 3GN is not... a sanctioning body. I'm sure its going to shake out. I guarantee you anyone with an understanding of this sport is busting Chad A's bean bag. He can comply or take the ache. Its not Chad's fault he doesn't understand all the details of the sport & I am sure a few notables are giving him sound advise. Lets try to not go make him feel like we are being combative and maintain a little emotional stability. A good relationship will (I would think?) be more fruitful. horse...water.... P.S. Trapr, I'm going to empty that soap box in your mouth, you're such a rascal! Edited January 26, 2011 by RufDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomfab Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I think I'm going to enter my dog into the HM division at three different major matches. Even without firing a shot and zeroing every stage, he'll still be ranked top 50 in the nation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) I think I'm going to enter my dog into the HM division at three different major matches. Even without firing a shot and zeroing every stage, he'll still be ranked top 50 in the nation! Dam, I spit water all over my screen. That was hilarious...... Edited January 26, 2011 by abn-rgr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 As a HM or limited shooter I am sure I will be ranked somewhere below boomfab's dog, but I will always welcome more entries into HM. I do not think that the rules where written with the purpose of driving competitors to shoot heavy metal. Even with this added incentive how many people are honestly going to move to heavy metal. It seems many shooters feel HM is nothing more than a quaint backwater division that cool kids would never enter into anyway. Rufdog, you just want all divisions where Vortex can't field it's products eliminated, and that 200 year old comment really stung, I am all teared up. Even if me and the dog do qualify for the finals the odds are that neither of us will shoot it, thus leaving room for the more deserving tac ops shooters. Unless you are a serious threat to win the finals or a shoot off what difference does this method of keeping score really make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RufDog Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Unless you are a serious threat to win the finals or a shoot off what difference does this method of keeping score really make. ok, first off I don't care how many people shoot HM. Its a good program, have a ball. I'm sure I'll take a crack at it sometime. This isnt about liking or not liking a division. If I suck I shouldn't get into a shoot off though. The issue here is I really don't think you grasp what we are talking about. With the proposed 2011 scoring; A person could finish last in a field of 10 shooters 3 times in HM and beat out a guy that finished 11th in a field of 200 in TO. You tell me who had to fight harder, train more and generally put in more effort? The TO guy did. The whole point is this, if you do not go off of percentage a guy that is not a threat can land himself square into a shoot off just by shooting HM or TI based on the field being smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pastorjohnd Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Unless you are a serious threat to win the finals or a shoot off what difference does this method of keeping score really make. ok, first off I don't care how many people shoot HM. Its a good program, have a ball. I'm sure I'll take a crack at it sometime. This isnt about liking or not liking a division. If I suck I shouldn't get into a shoot off though. The issue here is I really don't think you grasp what we are talking about. With the proposed 2011 scoring; A person could finish last in a field of 10 shooters 3 times in HM and beat out a guy that finished 11th in a field of 200 in TO. You tell me who had to fight harder, train more and generally put in more effort? The TO guy did. The whole point is this, if you do not go off of percentage a guy that is not a threat can land himself square into a shoot off just by shooting HM or TI based on the field being smaller. True. Think of it this way. If 3GN points were awarded at Ozark 3G 2010, my 10th place finish in HM would have given me 283 points, making me #50 in the standings even though Ozark 3G was my first and only major match thus far. I appreciate 3GN's nod to less represented divisions, but that just ain't right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 (edited) Rufdog, I appreciate the fact that you do not think I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately I do understand the point that you are trying to get across. I am sorry that I have not communicated my points clearer, I will attempt to do a better job. I did not have any input in the rules of 3 gun nation or would I expect to. The decision makers at three gun nation picked this method on their own, and for their own reasons that I would not even care to guess about. If you want to play the game you play by the rules that they have set, if you don't like them, lobby them to change the rules, or don't play. Even with these rule changes I seriously question if many (if any) people will jump on the heavy metal or limited bandwagon to gain a shot at the finals. If someone can jump divisions and take first place and get a shot at the shoot off then they deserve to be there. Who worked harder or trained harder has no bearing on this discussion, it does not even matter who is a better shooter. You seem upset that T.O. shooters will somehow get the raw end of the deal, while this is noble I feel it is misguided. Under your example the guy that comes in 10th in heavy metal at three or more matches may very well get enough points to qualify for the finals, but how many people who would finish 10th in heavy metal will even attend three major matches? And how many of those would attend nationals, and the finals? Even with this equality of the divisions method of qualifying for the finals, the probability of some schmuck heavy metal shooter like me sneaking into the finals is very low. The most likely way that this rule will be exploited is by a T.O. shooter jumping divisions to try and make the finals if he or she does not feel they could swing it in their own division. Is it fair to the 11th placed T.O. shooter? In the eyes of the people that made the rules it is fair, and in this case that is all that matters. The person that wins the finals will not be the competitor that came in 10th in H.M. no matter what division he or she original wanted to play in. If someone thinks they can do better in a less popular division then more power to them. In the end the skill of the shooter is what picks the winner of the match, jockeying from one division to another may get a person qualified who would not be able to make it in T.O., but it wont help them win. The opportunity to change to a lesser represented class is available to all shooters, and as such is fair. The question as to wether it is a good idea to score this way is separate from the question of fairness, and I frankly don't care if it is a good way to qualify or not. Look at the current top ten in the standings and tell me which one of them does not belong? It looks to me like the scoring system is working so far. I think that the attention 3 gun nation has brought to our sport has been good, I am happy that some shooters where able to win some extra cash, I don't even mind if some people decide to try H.M. to because of it. Edited January 26, 2011 by Stlhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunNation Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 All, It has come to our attention that this year's point system, aimed at giving competitors interested in qualifying for the 3GN Championship the freedom to switch divisions as they please, has some unintended consequences. So we are reviewing the process, with input from competitors, and will revise the rules accordingly. Our goal is to get the most deserving competitors into the 3GN Championship. Sincerely, Chad Adams 3-Gun Nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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