Poppers, the great Equalizer?

[GSWEAR]

I agree. If you can't knock it down, shoot again, aim higher. If you're upset that you can't knock over the steel, use different ammo, or a different gun, or a more powerful cartridge. Too much whining.

Thanks Steve!I've been wanting to post something the last couple days but figured it would turn into a rant, all the talk about reshoots and what MD's had to do makes me want to puke.

At a match I usually just hang out and visit and really don't pay a lot of attention or worry about gaming but if I'm shooting a 9mm I always look to see how the poppers are falling if there are any, if I see one/some that seem to be hard to knock over when I shoot I'll take the extra 1/4 second to make sure I get a good high hit.

Greg

[Wild Gene]

I agree. If you can't knock it down, shoot again, aim higher. If you're upset that you can't knock over the steel, use different ammo, or a different gun, or a more powerful cartridge. Too much whining.

Thanks Steve!I've been wanting to post something the last couple days but figured it would turn into a rant, all the talk about reshoots and what MD's had to do makes me want to puke.

At a match I usually just hang out and visit and really don't pay a lot of attention or worry about gaming but if I'm shooting a 9mm I always look to see how the poppers are falling if there are any, if I see one/some that seem to be hard to knock over when I shoot I'll take the extra 1/4 second to make sure I get a good high hit.

Greg

Exactly!

[Duane Thomas]

Let's put a stop to referring to other members' commentary as "whining" and stating how it "makes me want to puke." Please take this opportunity to re-read the Forum Guidelines, especially this part:

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.

No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.

Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable.

Thanks. And now on with our regularly scheduled topic.

[GOF]

This is just one SO's opinion, but if a shooter hits the calibration zone, or head, of the popper twice with an IDPA legal PF load and it doesn't go down, I would have to call that a Range equipment malfunction. I wouldn't automatically do it on one hit (unless it has occured with other shooters)... but definitely on the second hit. I would then check the popper, and give the shooter a reshoot. All competitors using IDPA legal loads should have the same opportunity to drop a popper. If they are set so hard that it takes an above PF hit to drop them, the competition (IMHO) is not being fairly held.

GOF

[Bones]

Am I reading some of these posts/posters to say "If a competitor strikes a steel activator in the center zone with a single, full diameter hit using verified and compliant equipment from a required or permitted engagement position and the target fails to function it may or may not constitute a range equipment malfunction"? What other objective characteristics could possibly constitute a range equipment malfunction? Isn't it reasonable to expect that if a competitor complies, the equipment should function?

If there is a subjective interpretation component to the malfunction question above (as indicated by posts on this forum and others), my follow-up questions are:

Where would I find the IDPA rule(s) that require competitors to use the same ammunition throughout an entire match beyond the stated minimum power factor requirements?

Why would some consider the intermittent use of more powerful ammunition than is required "unsportsmanlike" if there is no confidence the match is designed to operate within the stated rules?

Craig

[Wild Gene]

Craig,

Good questions. I am wondering if Greg didn't partially answer. The solution being if you are not 100% sure if it will go down, slow down and aim a little higher. If ammo must meet a given PF out of a given barrel length, and you know by some variation of equipment, you are not making that with your exact set up (ie. shorter barrel), you have to compensate somehow.

Fast forward a bit. Hypothetical situation/question, and numbers; If you are shooting a .38 and having .20 splits, shooting against someone shooting .45 and .25 splits, and the guy with the .38 takes an extra .5-1.0 second on a popper, how many poppers does it take to make up the difference to have the times come out the same in the end? The exact answer really doesn't matter. The point is that a popper can be quite an equalizer.

*Hey guys, and gals, while I really wanted to know how to set my poppers for home practice, I did add the "great equalizer" to see what the perception of poppers and their use at a match is. I find this conversation very interesting. I am happy there is a combination of civility and good Moderation of the forum. Thank you everyone.

Regards,

WG

Edited January 18, 2011 by Wild Gene

[GOF]

One reason why I would not automatically call a range equipment malf on the first "tink" is because I can't always ascertain precisely where the hit was. On the second "tink", it's time to say "Stop", and adjust equipment. I've hit poppers at their base with a 165 PF .45 ACP load that didn't go down, but a decent hit with a 125 PF load dropped them. One "tink" isn't enough for me to yell "Stop"... two tinks is.

GOF

[Bones]

My questions have nothing to do with split times, transition times or points of aim.

A shorter barrel length than maximum is permitted within the rules in all Divisions. One of the consequences of the new SSR PF rules and the existing IDPA ammunition rules is that activating targets will be impacted with ammunition generating PFs below 105000, perhaps as low as 90000.

My question in summary was "Should compliant competitors expect activating targets to function"

I hope the universal answer is "Yes".

Craig

Edited January 18, 2011 by Bones

[Wild Gene]

My questions have nothing to do with split times, transition times or points of aim.

A shorter barrel length than maximum is permitted within the rules in all Divisions. One of the consequences of the new SSR PF rules and the existing IDPA ammunition rules is that activating targets will be impacted with ammunition generating PFs below 105000, perhaps as low as 90000.

My question in summary was "Should compliant competitors expect activating targets to function"

I hope the universal answer is "Yes".

Craig

Yes, I understood what you meant. I did not mean to string your answer into the second part of my post, I apologize if it was taken as such. I whole heartedly agree that compliant competitors should expect activating targets to function when calibrated and functioning properly. My point on the second part was really "Is it reasonable that someone shooting a lesser powered round to have to make a more precise shot?".

WG

[DustyW]

I've been shooting CAS for a couple years now and am getting started in IDPA. Actually shot my first match on Saturday. CAS knockdowns are supposed to be calibrated for a factory 158 grain 38 special load to knock them down. However many clubs are getting away from using them because it has been hard to keep them calibrated. SASS sanctioned matches have a minimum power factor of 60. Don't laugh, but my 38 special loads have power factor of 68-70. One club had a plate rack and I always knocked those down with those loads. A 105 grain bullet with 3 grains of titegroup is a common load in CAS. I shot some poppers at the IDPA match Saturday with 9mm 147 grain bullets and had no problem with them. So, I have no complaints about how that club calibrates them.

[GOF]

Bones,

My answer to your question as to whether a PF complient competitor should expect steel reactive targets to go down with one good hit is a solid yes!

GOF

[Gregg K]

Here is another question to ponder. Suppose someone shows up with a snubby and light loads. The gun he is competing with only makes let's say 80 to 90PF but he is able to squeak by the chrono because he brought along a 4.2" gun that makes the minimum power floor of 105. Should the popper be calibrated to go down with a hit from his chrono gun that allows him to compete or the one that he competes with that can't produce the minimum power?

There is nothing in the rule book about a calibration procedure. Should poppers go down when hit in the base, middle or top portion with minimum power loads? We can assume from other games that it would be a center hit but the book doesn't say. Should they go down with a gun that makes power on it's own or one that can't make the minimum at the chrono. I would just like to have a procedure for consistency at matches. With a procedure outlined competitors would know what is expected of their load / gun combination and match directors would have a standard to go by.

[Forrest Halley]

You've got to assume the gun that produces 105 is the one that is to be calibrated to. Otherwise we'll be forever in running to reset steel in light airs....just reward for trying to cater to everybody.

It's a stretch to assume the shooter that brings the snubby is going to bring a 4.2 to chrono with.

Is there any advantage gained by getting less out of the 105 PF load in the snubbie? No not really. The guys that are bringing a snubbie to an IDPA match have enough pride and confidence in their marksmanship that they don't want/need special accomodation. Just don't let anybody be cheated by making it too heavy or too light.

Good news is sierra is making a .358 225 gr game king boattail for those really long poppers so the wind won't getcha out on the 35 yd line.

The size of the box just changed figure out how to play inside it and accept the structure that the walls provide.

[sanman]

In IDPA the power factor issue is handled at the chrono. I would suggest that you set the poppers as light as they will still stand up.

Sandy

[sanman]

Gene,

I am curious as to which club you shoot IDPA matches at?

I am in WA too.

Sandy

[Bones]

My point on the second part was really "Is it reasonable that someone shooting a lesser powered round to have to make a more precise shot?".

WG

No, it is not.

Impact-activated targets aside, IDPA does not proportionally assign value to the accuracy and/or precision of hits based on power factor for paper targets. All hits are scored the same.

IDPA rules create the very real probability of compliant competitors legitimately using gun/ammunition combinations that do not meet stated minimum PFs. Given the barrel lengths permitted to make PF compared to those of commercially-available smaller firearms in each Division, a 15% deficit is easily achieved.

What would be reasonable is to preclude any need for subjective discussions by: 1) requiring all competitors to demonstrate a minimum PF from their chosen equipment; 2) setting PF requirements accordingly and; 3) proscribing a method for calibrating impact-activated targets.

The only fair and reasonable way to deal with the uncertainty the absence of those rules creates is to provide all compliant competitors the same opportunities to succeed.

Craig

[Duane Thomas]

Agreed.

[Wild Gene]

My point on the second part was really "Is it reasonable that someone shooting a lesser powered round to have to make a more precise shot?".

WG

No, it is not.

Impact-activated targets aside, IDPA does not proportionally assign value to the accuracy and/or precision of hits based on power factor for paper targets. All hits are scored the same.

IDPA rules create the very real probability of compliant competitors legitimately using gun/ammunition combinations that do not meet stated minimum PFs. Given the barrel lengths permitted to make PF compared to those of commercially-available smaller firearms in each Division, a 15% deficit is easily achieved.

What would be reasonable is to preclude any need for subjective discussions by: 1) requiring all competitors to demonstrate a minimum PF from their chosen equipment; 2) setting PF requirements accordingly and; 3) proscribing a method for calibrating impact-activated targets.

The only fair and reasonable way to deal with the uncertainty the absence of those rules creates is to provide all compliant competitors the same opportunities to succeed.

Craig

Craig, Thank you! That is a perfect explaination. I think it says a lot of positive about the sport.

Sandy, I have not shot a sanctioned IDPA match, just USPSA matches. We have a club by LaGrande that does IDPA, about 95 miles from my house. My "local" club is about 55 miles in the other direction, but they only shoot USPSA style matches. We had a concealed carry option match last week, and I got my REAR KICKED! I had my vest and everything, I was having serious feeding problems with my SS, but all frustration aside, it was actually a lot of fun, so I wanted to go shoot some IDPA matches. Just want to be prepared, kind of get an idea of what to expect. It looks like a great match structure. My goal is to make it to a match on the West Side this summer. We have a small place available in Indianola, just off of Bainbridge, and if we go over this summer, I want to bring my gear and shoot some sort of match. Where do you shoot?

Thanks,

Gene

Edited January 19, 2011 by Wild Gene

[sanman]

Gene,

I mostly shoot at Renton (NWPPA), but we have a number of clubs on the west side of the state.

Sandy

[Wild Gene]

Gene,

I mostly shoot at Renton (NWPPA), but we have a number of clubs on the west side of the state.

Sandy

Renton is a good club, say "Howdy" to Headly for me.

Back to the whole "poppers" issue. I am all for a good set of rules and procedures, but the fewer the better. When you keep them simple, often people find ways around them to gain some sort of advantage. The problem there is that conversely, ways are found to pull them back in, either through stated rules and/or procedure. I think the SASS popper calibration is a prime example of this. Do the math, you have a minimum PF of about 60 (which is a fairly new rule) and yet poppers are supposed to be calibrated by a factory 158 grain .38 Special, I believe it is around the 120PF range. People know how they are calibrated, but choose to use lower powered, but legal, loads anyway.?????

I am pleased that, from what I have gathered here, that poppers are generally calibrated to fall with a hit from the lowest legal PF or less, and that the lowest legal PF is still high enough to make the weapon that fires it make somewhat viable for the intended purpose of the sport.

I am in no way trying to start a fight or argument, but do enjoy a good, civil discussion. Thank you for that.

Regards,

WG

Edited January 19, 2011 by Wild Gene

[Blueridge]

With the new 105,000 power factor in SSP division, and the possibility that someone will be shooting legal ammo out of a 2" revolver, steel should probably fall if hit by a 90,000 power factor load. I generally adjust steel so that it will fall from anything more than a small gust of wind.

That is really another question. If it doesn't come out of your gun making 105, then it really isn't legal, is it?

Thanks!

WG

By the rules it would be legal if it makes power in a barrel of maximum length for the division. It doesn't have to make it from their gun. I don't think it's right but that's the rule.

2. Official Chronograph Procedure

Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using a

gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same

gun type.

-----------------------------------------

Note the rule clarification below.....The important point is that the ammunition being used by the competitor MUST make power factor in the handgun that they are using. The reference to a suitable handgun of maximum barrel length is based upon one being available. The match organizer does not have to provide the handgun, it is the competitors responsibility to make power factor with what they have if a suitable handgun of maximum length is not available. Therefore if you don't make power factor with the ammunition and handgun you have, then you will be disqualified and given a DNF for the whole match.

----------------------------------------

Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using the competitors gun. If two (2) of the three (3) rounds exceed the power floor, the competitor is in compliance. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve maximum velocity.

Should the competitors ammunition fail to meet the power floor, the competitor will have the option to chronograph three (3) additional rounds using his gun or a gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same gun type. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve maximum velocity.

It is not the match organizers responsibility to try and provide a gun of every type and caliber. The logistics of this could be almost impossible. If the match officials can, provide the gun or borrow one from a different match competitor to reattempt to pass the chronograph. However, if a suitable substitute can not be obtained, the attempt must be made using the competitors gun. It is ultimately the responsibility of the competitor to insure his ammunition will make power.

If there is any question as to the bullet weight, a bullet should be pulled and weighed using a powder scale. Any competitor whose ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF score.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Blueridge

[GOF]

Not all revolvers will deliver the same velocity with the same load, some guns are slower or faster than others. Nor will all six chambers in a specific individual revolver deliver the same velocity with the same load. The new Rule Addendum seems to finally recognize that fact. I could easily forsee a situation where the shooter is loading "tight to the PF" and has only one or two chambers of his primary match gun that will make PF, yet may have a second gun as a back up (same make, model, barrel length, etc) where they will make PF. Not every revolver is the same, even if they appear identical on the surface. The way I read the new Rule Addendum a shooter could run the chrono with his primary gun and match ammo, fail the chrono, shoot the back up gun with the same ammo, pass the chrono... and since it did make PF from a legal gun... would then be allowed to continue the match with the primary that didn't make it. Does anyone have a different take on this? I'm not looking for an arguement, just some opinions from SOs & MDs.

GOF

[Gregg K]

-----------------------------------------

Note the rule clarification below.....The important point is that the ammunition being used by the competitor MUST make power factor in the handgun that they are using. The reference to a suitable handgun of maximum barrel length is based upon one being available. The match organizer does not have to provide the handgun, it is the competitors responsibility to make power factor with what they have if a suitable handgun of maximum length is not available. Therefore if you don't make power factor with the ammunition and handgun you have, then you will be disqualified and given a DNF for the whole match.

----------------------------------------

Chronograph three (3) rounds at a distance of ten (10) feet using the competitors gun. If two (2) of the three (3) rounds exceed the power floor, the competitor is in compliance. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve maximum velocity.

Should the competitor’s ammunition fail to meet the power floor, the competitor will have the option to chronograph three (3) additional rounds using his gun or a gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same gun type. Prior to each shot, the muzzle of the gun should be elevated to move the powder charge to the rear of the case, thus giving the competitor every chance to achieve maximum velocity.

It is not the match organizers responsibility to try and provide a gun of every type and caliber. The logistics of this could be almost impossible. If the match officials can, provide the gun or borrow one from a different match competitor to reattempt to pass the chronograph. However, if a suitable substitute can not be obtained, the attempt must be made using the competitor’s gun. It is ultimately the responsibility of the competitor to insure his ammunition will make power.

If there is any question as to the bullet weight, a bullet should be pulled and weighed using a powder scale. Any competitor whose ammunition fails to meet the minimum power floor will be disqualified from the entire match and receive a DNF score.

The competitors gun does not have to make power with his loads, they only need to make it with a gun of maximum barrel length for his division. If the competitors gun doesn't make chrono then you move on to the next part of the rule that states..

Should the competitor’s ammunition fail to meet the power floor, the competitor will have the option to chronograph three (3) additional rounds using his gun or a gun of MAXIMUM barrel length for the DIVISION of the same gun type.

As stated in the procedure, it is not the organizers responsibility to provide such a gun, that's why I suggest that competitors that use a shorter gun that may not make power to carry another one that does and provide it to the chrono testers if his first three rounds don't make it from his first gun.

[Forrest Halley]

So basically the competitor's load/gun doesn't have to make PF. The option exists to chrono out of a full length gun under the new addendum. What Bones says about compliant competitors all recieving the same chance to succeed is spot on. I ask how can a competitor be considered totally compliant if their gun/load combo does not make PF? The point of the load making PF in a gun not being used for the competition is moot. There should be no reshoot awarded for a competitor that takes this route. The steel must fall to score and since the presence of steel makes for unlimited shots setting it to fall with a center hit from a 105PF combination seems an honest and fair method.

[GOF]

Gregg K,

Thanks for your opinion, especially coming from a upper level revo shooter. That was also my interpretation of the new rule, I just wanted to see some conformation.

GOF

Edited January 19, 2011 by GOF