Heavy Metal, where to start?

[XDman]

What platform would be considered the best to start in this division, ar, m1a etc?

Beyond the basic firearm, what improvements would be recommended over time?

[Bryan 45]

As Patrick Kelly once said, the M1A has been in the HM division winner's hands more often than any other rifle. Of course, that's what he shoots- which is why it's won so many matches.

HM is not a gear race like some of the other divisions tend toward. Pick a rifle you are comfortable with and spend time with it. Take it out to dinner, read it a story at bed time. Sights and trigger are the most important- which immediately excludes the G3 copies and almost all FALs. (Although Kelly Neal can put a hurtin' on almost anyone with his FAL.) The AR .308 pattern and M1A can be equals when comparing the triggers, but the sights on the M1A cannot be matched. With practice either rifles "shortcomings" will be equal to the other platform.

I have not had the chance to fire any .308 AR with a reduced mass carrier or adjustable gas system, but my factory DPMS is not near as comfortable to shoot as my M1A. I hear the FN SCAR-H is a soft shooter, but the extra $1.5K will buy a lot of Advil.

When you choose a rifle I would hold off on any improvements and spend the money on ammo and the time on practice. If you are already proficeint with irons- then my apologies!

[dcloudy777]

What he said. I would add this though. If you have shot the AR pattern gun in 5.56 for awhile, I would recommend the AR platform. That's what I went with (DPMS gun), because I was already very familiar with the controls, and know how to work on them. I used the same grip and trigger from my 5.56 gun, so the feel is very similar (until the round goes off ).If you are "starting from scratch", then by all means go shoot as many rounds as you can through both and pick your favorite. Another point, if you are the type of guy that likes to tinker, experiment with handguards, stocks, grips, triggers, comps, that kinda thing; than the AR platform has way more "stuff" out there to choose from.

DanO

[kurtm]

Well to make this real easy....M1A/M14. To make it much harder on your self....AR-10. But have fun deciding! KurtM

[ShootfastRunfaster]

I have shot both an AR pattern 308 and an M1A in He-Man over the past 5 years at the Rocky Mountain 3-Gun. I do better with the M1A at a match like that which involves a number of longer range shots. If its a short range match (150 yards and closer), I thing it's a toss-up with a little favor to the AR pattern gun. Either one is a great choice. HK91 types just won't make it and match accurate FAL's will cost you a bit of coin. There are many competitors out there that shoot those guns, but look at what the top finishers are using. Yeah, yeah, Kelly Neal will kick everyone's but with an FAL, but I bet he could do the same with a Hawken .50 cal..

I like my M1A and will be running it in the Texas State Tactical 2-Gun and this years RM3G.

If you do go with the AR pattern gun, save yourself a bunch of time and buy a JP LRP-07. Other than the increased muzzle blast, it shoots like a .223 AR running GI ammo.

Edited January 3, 2011 by ShootfastRunfaster

[pastorjohnd]

Six months ago I was asking myself the same questions. I was getting ready for my first 3 gun match (Ozark 3 gun), and planning to shoot Heavy Metal.

I shot an M1A, mainly because I already had an accurized version for NRA Highpower. All things being equal, I’d stick with the M1A. They’re very reliable, accurate, and easier to handle than the AR 10’s I’ve shot. Like Bryan said, the SCAR H looks interesting. They’re supposed to have a softer recoil, but I don’t know a single person who’s shot one so I don’t know how its accuracy would compare to an M1A.

The only “improvement” I’ve made since the match is that I’ve been working up a new handload for it, specifically for 3 gun.

[XDman]

OK, just ordered a SCAR-H and a JP LRP-07, then I woke up! Holy cow, if I were made of $, maybe but cant justify at this time.

I'll look for a used M1a or AR-10 to get started. May not be worth it if there are not many 3 gun shoots in my area.

[kellyn]

I assume we are talking heavy metal iron and not scope. The cool thing about this division is that there is no dominant rifle. AR10s, FALs, and M1As are all competitive. I don't think the hard kicking/trigger from hell HK91 is competitive though.

I think FALs point the best and have the best overall handling characteristics. They also have the worst triggers of the 3 and are probably the least accurate as a system although all mine seem to shoot really well with good bullets. The triggers can be improved but they will never even be close to a JP LPR07. If you get a FAL, get the Hampton lower from DSA which has an M16A2 rear sight in it which cures one of the stock FALs curses: the rear sight. And you get an adjustable gas system.

M1As have great sights, recoil the least (due to their light bolt), and have good triggers. M1As give you lots of sight radius which is nice. Plus like the FAL, the sights are close to the bore. Again, like the FAL, the mag change is slower than a AR10. I believe M1As tend to shoot themselves apart faster than the other 2 and are the least durable over the long haul. I shot 2 M14s into oblivion as a junior highpower shooter, something I have never done with a FAL.

AR10s have the best controls (particularly the trigger), definitely the fastest mag change, and are easiest to scope. AR10s should be consistently the most accurate but it seems many an AR10 is less than 100% reliable. If I was getting an AR10 for 3 gun, I would ONLY get the JP LPR07, which is probably the best heavy metal rifle, all said and done.

In my experience, FALs with short barrels (16 in) are more reliable than short barreled M1As and AR10s. But that is not so with full sized rifles.

[kurtm]

Well, I have a M1A on it's 3rd barrel and outside of the lack of rifling in the first two barrels it has never "hammered" it'sself apart. I think there was a Jr. shooter who didn't know his maintainance...but like he has said before...I just drive them...so I would blame his armorer , Outside of that I would have to agree with my amigo!

[kellyn]

I maintained my rifles FAR better back then. Cleaned them after every shooting session. What a maroon!

I did not mean that the rifles blew up or that the receivers cracked. But on those National Match M14s at the end of every shooting session: bedding would croak, gas systems would lose their mojo and need replacement etc. etc. You don't need the accuracy of a National Match M14 for most 3 gun but it would be nice and to maintain that level of accuracy takes some armory love.

[XDman]

OK, if we are talking big$ for a HM rifle, what about the Knight Armament REPR models?

[bigbrowndog]

weight is not your friend in HM, 9.5# is the heaviest I want. My JP is below that, My M1A is below that, My FAL was over that, My OBR was over that. It seems a lot of manufacturers want us to get an anaerobic workout while shooting, I've even gotten the reply back that I need to hit the gym more often. Most of the AR based guns are heavier than they NEED to be, if you go with 18 or 20 inch barrels. You can get them lighter, but rarely from the maker. The JP is the exception. the JP has a 20" .750 barrel, the M1A a 22" med/hvy barrel contour, the FAL was a 18" med/hvy fluted contour, and the OBR a 18" med/hvy tapered barrel, you can get them turned down thinner by a gunsmith, but you "should" be able to get the barrel the way you want it from the maker, why is it we can't, again JP is the exception, they have good choices in barrel contours.

Edited January 4, 2011 by bigbrowndog

[djeffers]

As Patrick Kelly once said, the M1A has been in the HM division winner's hands more often than any other rifle. Of course, that's what he shoots- which is why it's won so many matches.

HM is not a gear race like some of the other divisions tend toward. Pick a rifle you are comfortable with and spend time with it. Take it out to dinner, read it a story at bed time. Sights and trigger are the most important- which immediately excludes the G3 copies and almost all FALs. (Although Kelly Neal can put a hurtin' on almost anyone with his FAL.) The AR .308 pattern and M1A can be equals when comparing the triggers, but the sights on the M1A cannot be matched. With practice either rifles "shortcomings" will be equal to the other platform.

I have not had the chance to fire any .308 AR with a reduced mass carrier or adjustable gas system, but my factory DPMS is not near as comfortable to shoot as my M1A. I hear the FN SCAR-H is a soft shooter, but the extra $1.5K will buy a lot of Advil.

When you choose a rifle I would hold off on any improvements and spend the money on ammo and the time on practice. If you are already proficeint with irons- then my apologies!

Just curious, what dinner and bed time story does yours prefer?

[Stlhead]

Mine likes Katie Perry music. Not my choice, but what can I do??

I started shooting an 18" M1A, a couple of seasons ago and it did not work well for me. I then got a LRB M14SA and it worked well. Then I had a grass is always greener moment and picked up a LRP-07 and shot it all last year, it also worked well. This year I am going back to the LRB, and am only using the JP with optics. The main reason that I am going back is that it points like a shotgun, and I see an advantage of having my long guns handle in a similar way. I also get superior ballistics from my LRB and it still shoots soft, I will miss the P-mags and the left side charging handle though.

[sjs]

ok, so if you were to get an M1a which model would be most suited to 3-gun?

[Bryan 45]

I use a "Loaded." I like having just a little more weight w/ the medium barrel, but my rifle is still under 10.5 lbs. The standard has a lighter profile barrel under the handguard. In a 3 gun match, you would never be able to take advantage of the additional accuracy gained by using a Match or Super Match. But, if you find a standard for a good price, don't pass it up.

My only recommendations for mods to a stock rifle is a NM front sight post and a trigger job if it needs it. A comp is also a benefit, but if you're only going to shoot a couple HM matches a year it may not be worth the money. (It will cost about $200 for the adapter and something like a Titan.)

If you don't like the full size rifle, a Scout can be made to work. I wouldn't recommend the 16" guns- the short sight radius is a handicap. If you're planning on running a dot in HM, look at an AR.

[sjs]

ok thanks