GorillaTactical Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) No, I'm not considering running a RDS in limited........................ I am genuinely considering shooting limited IRONS hehe Other than getting a pair of irons that are competition worthy (I'm thinking a JP A2 front with a slimmed down sight post mounted up at the comp or this 1 by yhm and a DPMS rear), what else is there to do.......other than practice. Are the m16 style sights the way to go? If so, how do you limited shooters typically run your zeros and holds at distances...do you run battle zeros? Do you shoot over the rear sight at close targets? Do you shoot the 0-2 app up close with both eyes open? Edited January 1, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Do you shoot over the rear sight at close targets? Do you shoot the 0-2 app up close with both eyes open? No and yes. what else is there to do.......other than practice. Know your zero. If you cannot call your shots without any feedback, you will fail. -Cameron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 JP makes the only front sight I know of that looks like it clamps good with out a pin. I have a set of Dueck 45 tilt offset sights sale = but you would have to have a rail to mount the front sight to. And How could you even consider -NOT keeping both eyes open for close shots??? i don't think closing a eye is nearly as slow as opening it back up again. But I am not much of an Iron sight shooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) And How could you even consider -NOT keeping both eyes open for close shots??? i don't think closing a eye is nearly as slow as opening it back up again. But I am not much of an Iron sight shooter just cause I'm not old doesn't mean I don't have eye problems Jamie I have a set of Dueck 45 tilt offset sights sale = but you would have to have a rail to mount the front sight to. Cause I have a 16" barrel I really need the extended sight radius of the clamp on Know your zero. If you cannot call your shots without any feedback, you will fail. -Cameron Cam do you typically run a 25 yard battle zero and just use the A2 sight adjustments as they were designed? Edited January 1, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyNo! Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) Cam do you typically run a 25 yard battle zero and just use the A2 sight adjustments as they were designed? The only problem with that is that your ammo must be M855, your sight radius must be the same as the M16A2/A4, and your targets must be human torsos for it to be effective. (Since duplicating non-AP M855 can be challenging, you want a long sight radius, and we shoot at tiny targets) Also, you will not be able to use a low hold and have the numbers match up to their corresponding distances. What I plan to do in 2011 is run a 200 yard zero if I'm shooting under 200 yards and my front sight does not cover the target - POA/POI all the way down to that point. If my front sight is bigger than the target, I'll click up to a 300 yard zero during the walkthrough and hold low. Past that, I'll be lazing targets and counting clicks. I plan to run the JP globe sight but I've seen a lot of people running the one you posted (Kurt & Trapr do IIRC). Most people run 20's but it will be awesome if you're nailing everything with a 16" - I feel bad going as short as 18" and I'd make plans to run a 20" barrel in the division if the company that's building the rifle began to make them. Kelly Neal uses the JP globe and I don't think I've ever seen someone on top use a flip up. I have concerns of it not being as stable as a sight with fewer moving parts. I'm in a similar boat for 2011 and I think it will be rewarding even though our prize table won't be as big or our competition as numerous. Nothing blows up your ego like beating scoped competitors on a long ranged stage with irons. Hope to shoot with you soon! -Cameron Edited January 1, 2011 by DyNo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 JP is the best choice out there for a front sight. I'm not completely sure, but I think the YHM is at a slightly different height then a standard A2, there is also no need for the the flip up feature. That said, I have been running this one for the last year at a fraction of the cost, comes with set screws.. http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=512 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 run a 250-300yd zero and the THEN check where your big aperture hits up close, I generally do not use the big hole (when I have one) beyond 50yds. its lousy for accuracy on poppers at relatively close distances (50-75) closer than 50 its just as easy to shoot instinctively looking down the rifle barrel for paper. but then I shoot a bow/arrow that way also. for frontsight, the JP, Armalite, and the one pres mentioned all work well, with the JP being the benchmark, and the front post is already thinned to .050. if you go to red neck tactical on facebook there is a pic of my limited AR that went to Norway for ERC, in the photo album. A 16" barrel would not be my first choice for an iron rifle, but if its what you have, use it!!! its better than wishing for something else, and not shooting with the REAL IRON MEN!!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 run a 250-300yd zero and the THEN check where your big aperture hits up close, I generally do not use the big hole (when I have one) beyond 50yds. its lousy for accuracy on poppers at relatively close distances (50-75) closer than 50 its just as easy to shoot instinctively looking down the rifle barrel for paper. but then I shoot a bow/arrow that way also. for frontsight, the JP, Armalite, and the one pres mentioned all work well, with the JP being the benchmark, and the front post is already thinned to .050. if you go to red neck tactical on facebook there is a pic of my limited AR that went to Norway for ERC, in the photo album. A 16" barrel would not be my first choice for an iron rifle, but if its what you have, use it!!! its better than wishing for something else, and not shooting with the REAL IRON MEN!!!!! Trapr Trapr, I assume you dial the rear sight for shots beyond 300......how does your zero of 250-300 effect this? I know a 25 yard zero is supposed to be approx a 300 yard zero, but like Cam was saying before, the military's zero works if your shooting at torso targets, not 4MOA targets.... My knowledge regarding dialing irons is pretty minor so please correct me if I've said anything incorrect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 The difference between a 55 gr M193 ball round impact and a 77 gr M262 round at 300M is exactly 1 inch, with M855 falling closer to M193 than M262 and I would consider that MUCH better accuracy than "torso" so as you can see your ammo DOES NOT have to be M855. The turret clicks on an A2 type sight, IF PROPERLY ZEROED, work out to about 500M on any extended sight radius carbine. After that you actually need less come up due to sight radius...but with your 16" barrel it will work ALL THE WAY OUT....as long as the ammo you use is close to G.I. anything in velocity. As for "zeroing" ANYTHING at 25 yards, I don't even zero my pistols at that range (50yds). It is complete fallicy that any close range zero "will be about" anything! The only way to get a true zero at 200, 250, 300, etc. is to actually shoot at THAT range! I have seen carbines be off by more than 2 ft at 200 yard when the owner "zeroed" at 25 yards! BEWARE! I run a 300 yard zero. I have only twice in my life dialed up for any shot. Once was because I hadn't thought it through and it was needless, and the second time was with a whole bank of targets at extended range...that is twice in over 16 years of 3-gun shooting. The process of counting clicks is SLOW and for the most part needless. The J.P. Globe sight sucks for what we do. It has way too many adjustments and it is hard to keep the darn thing to stay put unless you are real carefull and have about a gallon of Red Loc-Tite, it is very prone to snagging, and it is fairly fragile. The J.P. A2 gas block/sight is THE BEST for what we do, with the other ones Trapr, and Pres mentioned are far more acceptable. Yes Kelly runs one...for a couple of reasons, John gave it to him, he spent a lot of time on getting it "solid", nothing else was available at the time, and He is experienced enough shooting 3-gun that he is carefull with it! KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) so kurt you just know your impact beyond 300 yard engagements and hold over correctly? and @ approx. 100-150M your holding low by about 5" or so? Thanks for your input on sight selection btw...i was pretty sure before but now know JP a2 is the one I'll be ordering Edited January 1, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Yes I know them. For my rifle with my load it is 3" high at 100 4" high at 200, dead on at 300.(note that is the cool thing about a 300 yard zero), 6" low at 350 and 13 inches low at 400. Past that the targets are usually real big so just aim at the top. All the above will be different for yor rifle and your load, so you get to spend some time at the range to figure this out for your gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) All the above will be different for yor rifle and your load, so you get to spend some time at the range to figure this out for your gear. Right obviously....I was just curious if you were purely shooting off of knowing your POA/POI rather than dialing. awesome that you do... when you are shooting hoser stages do you typically switch to the 0-2 app and shoot both eyes open? thanks for your input thus far Edited January 1, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) I don't run irons any more, but when I did I was happy with the JP Globe front sight with crosshair insert. I liked how it seemed to obscure less of the target when holding over (on stages where dialing in the elevation did not make sense). I also liked the "circle-in-circle" sight picture, which I think allowed me to shoot a bit more accurately at intermediate distances (50-100 yards) using the large A2 "0-2" aperture. I did not find it particularly fragile - it never moved on me in the several years I ran it. For a rear sight, I also ran the DPMS removable A2-style rear sight. HOWEVER: for some bizarre reason known only to DPMS, all of the several examples I bought came with a 3/6 elevation index but a 3/8 rear sight base/elevation knob, meaning that the clicks did not match the distance marking on the index. Also, the roll pin through the sight base would not allow the elevation to adjust higher than about the 400M mark. My solution was to disassemble the sight (including driving out the roll pin), replace the elevation index with a standard A2 3/8 index, and use a Dremel cutoff wheel to open the bottom of the roll pin slot to allow travel all the way to the 800M mark. Once done and reassembled, this sight worked great for me. I used a Santose IBZ, giving me a true 200M zero (verified and fine tuned at 200 of course) with the small aperture and accurate elevation settings out past 500 yards. I ran a 20" barrel with the front sight on the gas block. Now I run a red dot.. much less drama Edited January 1, 2011 by StealthyBlagga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Gorilla, I now run a A1 aperture, so that I have NO (big Hole) just 2 small ones that when zero'd with the short range hole at 250 the long range hole is zero'd at 350. I have once or twice dialed up for novelty/bonus targets at 500-600 yards. I think I dialed for the 475 at FB this year but for "normal" rifle targets those 2 zeros work perfect for me, with the 250 doing 95% of the duty and the 350 being used the rest of the time. Given the midrange trajectory i hold 6 oclock for all my steel because the height of the bullet over the post works out to be on the plate, given the "normal" plates we see in use. (avg 3-4moa) as Kurt said, relying on a short range zero to work correctly at long range is not the RIGHT way to do it. Some may have gotten it to work but but there is NO set number like 25yd or 27yd or 37yds etc. If you can't shoot a group at distance well enough to get a proper sight-in then you NEED more trigger time, not less, and you need to learn the basics of rifle shooting. use the time to learn how to shoot your rifle accurately, a rimfire will serve this purpose nicely. All you need your rifle to shoot is 2moa if you and your rifle can do that, your set, and can only get better with practice. I used a JP globe and found the inserts to be less than optimal, oh they are cool to play with and everytime I thought I found the right one I later found it to be problematic for conditions, other than the post one. which i believe is the one Kelly uses, so why not just use the standard post, its sturdier. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewj Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Brown dog, do you take time to flip your sights during a stage for long range targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Trapr, I only suggested a 25 yard zero as a starting point cause I don't have the facilities readily available to shoot at 250-300 yards.....my range and those locally max @ 200. I got it though. Get somewhere with a 300M range and work out a zero. Thanks for the info guys, great food for thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) With an AR15 I shoot like Kurt- only sllllloooooowwwwwwwwwwerrrrrrrrrr. The rear sight is "set and forget." I give up on using the big peep if a stage has any rifle targets further than about 40 yards and I'll even shoot the close stuff w/ the small peep. Concentrate on getting a good REPEATABLE cheek weld and let the rifle be your guide. Regarding your limited range. A 200 yard zero and 500 rounds of practice is much better than waiting until you get a chance to get to a 300 yard range. Edited January 2, 2011 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) I to run a 300 yard zero with a homemade version of the sight El Pres posted. I run the narrow front sight and I know where to hold and I know my clicks if I need to make an ajustment. I rarely adjust my rear sight unless it a is a 5-600 yard target. I am lucky that all I have to do is turn my rear sight all the way up until it stops, about 11 clicks, for my 600 yard zero. Where I screw up is forgetting to turn it back down after I am finished. I will use the big aperture if it close, less than 50. I run both 55 grain Montana Golds and 69 grain Noslers. They zero within an inch or two of each other. . I can hit the 600 yard target with either the 55's or the 69's with the same rear sight adjustment. The 69's buck the wind a little better, shoot a lot tighter groups, and hit the steel with a little more authority. So I tend to use them in matches at anything more than 200. Practice and knowing your zero at all ranges is the key. Scott Edited January 2, 2011 by Big Bore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Concentrate on getting a good REPEATABLE cheek weld and let the rifle be your guide. That' actually something I'm concerned about.....I have created a great muscle memory for my cheek weld with my optic over the passed 6 months......I will need to modify it for irons and I know for a while I'll always accidentally fall back to my old position haha. Another question regarding zero.......what do you guys say to those who suggest running a 50M zero. I shot a rifle (setup for limited) the other day which had a 50M zero and was +/- 2 inches on everything from right up close to about 200 (and according to the owner out to 250 although we didn't shoot that far). Edited January 2, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Stew, I will flip it if the majority of targets are beyond the 250 zero range, or if I can't seem to get the holdover right, it takes about 2 seconds to do it and you don't have to count anything. Gorilla about a 50m zero...........................see my previous post. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) If you start getting real good at shooting iron sights...YES I WANT YOU TO RUN A 50 YARD ZERO!!!! Don't listen to these guys who always preach zeroing at the real range you wan to hit stuff at...they don't even shoot iron sighted rifles, everyone who has replied to your post shoots only optics. All joking aside I do use the big aperture and I use it out to 100.I also know that I need to click up to 450 for it to hit the place as the small aperture...you will find out all on your own that the big and little aperture have nothing in common when it comes to where they hit in relation to each other Yes I keep both eyes open at all ranges Brian 45 had it right!! Listen to him Take everything I have posted and have said with a grain of salt because I have never even shot iron sights and I don't own a single rifle with iron sights on it.I am just regurgitating all the stuff I have learned on the inter-web! KurtM Edited January 2, 2011 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) here's a little tidbit to ponder when considering advice from "some" good shooters, I was handed an AR once to shoot at a P. dog about 200yds away, I asked where does it hit at that distance and was told to aim right at it, previously the owner had told me they had it sighted in 1" high at 100, and so because it shoots so flat that it is still 1" high at 200??? I handed the rifle back and took the shot with my rifle, when asked why I handed the rifle back, my reply was "trajectory, doesn't work that way". Some people really do not KNOW guns and shooting, they merely spout back what they've heard or read posted here on the forum, some of them are even pretty good shooters. some however have years and years of experience shooting and messin' with guns , the trick is to find those that do and listen to them, the hard part is learning who they are!!!! Trapr Edited January 2, 2011 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Trapr and Kurt, I didn't mean to suggest (by asking about the 50M zero) that you guys weren't right about an actual 250-300M zero........sorry if that's how it sounded....I was only asking about it cause I shot a rifle which had a 50M zero and was +/- 2 inches (not by word of mouth, but actual shots on target) from 25-250 and was curious if you guys had ever messed with that type of zero before. I absolutely understand the importance of knowing exactly where shots fall at given distances WITH MY RIFLE and practicing my holds at those distances. Thank you both for your input....your the guys I was hoping would respond to this thread. Edited January 2, 2011 by GorillaTactical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Well If you are shooting at 250 with someone elses rifle why cant you shoot 250 with your's assuming youn are still friends? Secondly...that simply isn't going to happen except with the hottest .223 load and out of a 20" barrel, a 16" just wont do it. My rifle crosses over right about 57 yards but WHO CARES, it is just coincidence.I shoot at 300 to get the zero, AND THEN come back in to see where it ACTUALLY hits at the various CLOSER ranges. The main thing with any SHORT RANGE ZERO is it just IDEALY gets you in the ball park. The Green Machine uses it to conserve ammo cause new recruits usually can't shoot groups AT ALL past about 100M, so they go with the short distance...(this is where Cam got mixed up), and hope that IN GENERAL it will hit a torso sized target out to 300M or so. The trouble is any little bit you are off up close becomes a HUGE difference "out there" Vertically and Windage wise. BUT if you are happy doing it that way feel free! Just expect a lot of extra shots and a few "Where in the Hell is this thing hitting" conversations with R.O.s/spotters Disclaimer: I learned all this stuff frome Jesse on the Inter-web, and some year I hope to actually go shoot a 3-gun match, instead of just typing about them.(adendum Note/Disclaimer this is to gig my good friend Jesse and is not ment to insult, inflame nor in anyway besmirch jesse's inter-web typing capabilities) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GorillaTactical Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 Well If you are shooting at 250 with someone elses rifle why cant you shoot 250 with your's assuming youn are still friends? Different parts of the country...couldn't bring my rifle with Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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