Win WST and 147 gr. a good combo for a newbie production loader?

[Frady]

Greetings everyone,

I am a new member but I have been lurking and reading for a while.

I am brand new loader and I am trying to determine the best starting combination for my needs. I am shooting (USPSA Production) an Armalite AR-24 custom which is a forged iteration of an EAA Witness. What I would like to achieve from this load is accuracy, soft shooting, economy and cleanliness in that order.

From my reading I see that most prefer a heavy grain bullet with a fast burning powder. What are your thoughts on Winchester WST with a 147 grain bullet?

What about bullets? It seems lots of people are fans of Zero, but are turning to Montana Gold because of stock issues. Is here another more economical/practical option I should be considering?

Can anyone see a problem with using Fiocchi primers with this powder? They seem to receive good reviews online and I can get them locally for a good price.

Thanks for any help you can offer and for a great resource.

[donnyglock]

I use wsf (winchester superfield) for my 9mm. For a 147 grain bullet try 3.8 grains and work your way up if you need to. For my glocks I load to an oal of 1.13 and for my Trojan 1.15. I have used Wolf,Winchester and Federal primers. If your gun has a lightened trig pull you might need softer primers like Federal. Wolf are harder primers than the others mentioned. I have not used any other primers so I can't say if they are good or not. The load I use is a very soft shooting load and makes 133 power factor out of my Glocks.

Good luck with the reloading.

[Solvability]

I use wsf (winchester superfield) for my 9mm. For a 147 grain bullet try 3.8 grains and work your way up if you need to. For my glocks I load to an oal of 1.13 and for my Trojan 1.15. I have used Wolf,Winchester and Federal primers. If your gun has a lightened trig pull you might need softer primers like Federal. Wolf are harder primers than the others mentioned. I have not used any other primers so I can't say if they are good or not. The load I use is a very soft shooting load and makes 133 power factor out of my Glocks.

Good luck with the reloading.

I am not aware of a WST load for 147 & 9mm. The current hot ticket is Solo 1000 - 3.3 to 3.5g with lead 147. Do you have a WST load from a reliable source? I use WST for 45 and like it.

[Action Pistolero]

Since you are new to reloading, stick to the loads in a reloading manual. You can substitute bullets of the same weight with the different manufacturers providing you start with the lowest load listed and work your way up. Get a few of the powders listed in the manual and try them. Part of the fun of reloading is to experiment with the different bullet and powder combinations.

The primers that you mentioned will work just fine.

I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but you need to get some loading under your belt so that you know what the cases and primers look like once fired with your loads. That way you will notice a difference when you try something that is over pressure.

WST is a great powder and I have been shooting it for the past 7 years. However, published data for the powder is lacking in the 9mm family of cartridges. It is reverse temperature sensitive which means the velocities go up as it gets colder. There are ways to minimize this but it takes time to learn the tricks.

I used a burn rate chart and 45 ACP data to determine my starting charge weight. I started low and worked up. I lucked out and found a load that works very well. I tried the same thing with Win AA Lite and it didn't work. I fired one shot and quit.

[Frady]

The reason I was looking at WST is because it is one of the few locally available powders that is reasonably priced (saving me HAZMAT and shipping)and I saw a few loads posted for soft loads. Thanks for the responses, they are appreciated.

I think I should have been looking at WSF instead as there are a lot more loads for that, but unfortunately not in my manuals either. I can get WSF locally as well, which is appealing to me for obvious reasons.

Would something such as this be a good starting point?

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Cartridge: 9mm Luger

Load Type: Pistol

Starting Loads

Maximum Loads

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

147 GR. FMJ Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 3.9 895 28,400 PSI 4.3 950 32,300 PSI

147 GR. LEAD CFP Winchester WSF .355" 1.169" 3.7 905 28,500 PSI 4.1 965 32,800 PSI

Edited December 30, 2010 by Frady

[Action Pistolero]

Looks like a good place to start.

Now you can play with overall lengths and see which one works best.

When you check for accuracy, seperate your cases by headstamp. The gun may prefer one headstamp over another.

Have fun and good luck.

[CocoBolo]

I started out loading with WST thought it was the only powder I'd ever need, I loaded it in 45, 40, and 9 mm. I have not done 147gr with WST, but I'm sure it will work with them, just drop the load down to 3.5-3.8 and load them at least 1.1.25 to 1.145 depending on your head space. If you have to load short at 1.0x then I'd look at a slower powder like WSF. WST is a lot like 231, and most times just know .1 off the 231 load and you have the WST load. For comparison my WST load for 125gr is 4.7gr to get to 135pf in hot weather, back off .2-.3 below 60.

While TiteGroup is Dirty, hot, and Nasty, it is very soft shooting and there is load data for 147, did I say cheap to. VV N320 has to be the defacto champion Production 9 mm powder. It does what they say, clean, soft, and boring. TiteGrop is also temp sensative.

[3ddiver]

I have just started loading WST with 147 lead. I am at 3.5 grains with 1.13 OAL. It is shooting in the 970 FPS range with a power factor around 142-144. When I chronoed them it was about 20 degrees outside so the way I understand it that will all go down some when it warms back up.

[98006]

I have just started loading WST with 147 lead. I am at 3.5 grains with 1.13 OAL. It is shooting in the 970 FPS range with a power factor around 142-144. When I chronoed them it was about 20 degrees outside so the way I understand it that will all go down some when it warms back up.

Strange. I loaded 3.6 wst with a 147gr lead and I only got 870 at 65 degrees

[Action Pistolero]

WST is reverse temp sensitive. The colder the rounds the higher the velocity.

The outside temp was 65 degree but what about the ammo? If the ammo was laying on a black tailgate it was hotter than 65. This is where I have to be careful. My ammo does not see the light of day until it gets shot.

[G-ManBart]

What about bullets? It seems lots of people are fans of Zero, but are turning to Montana Gold because of stock issues. Is here another more economical/practical option I should be considering?

The MG 147gr CMJ is a very good bullet. You may consider trying Precision Delta 147gr FMJs or FMJ-TC....they're a bit less expensive than the MGs, but don't have a covered base, so you'll get a tiny bit more smoke out of them. PD has had a bit of a backlog of late, so you may want to call and see what that is before ordering. R,

[YamaLink]

Came here to post the same question. I'm coming from 130 and 135 with decent results but with the new recoil spring swap to a 13 ismi figured may try a sample of 147 from Bear Creek or Black Bullets.

[Frady]

Thanks again for all the responses.

The reason I had looked into WST was because it was a fast burning powder available at a local store at a good price ($21) compared to not very good prices for everything else. After reading your responses and a bit more research I think I'll wait a bit on doing anything with WST.

The two I'm looking at now are VV N320 and WSF. If I'm going to pay HAZMAT I'm going to order at least 4lbs. The difference is $30 over 8000 rounds (~3.5 grains per charge for N320 and ~4.0 grains for WSF) if my math is correct? It seems that both are popular but N320 is the Cadillac. I've seen a few more published loads for WSF, but I'm sure there are plenty for N320. Considering the cost difference is something along the lines of .3 cents per cartridge I don't mind buying the high end powder. Any reason I shouldn't get N320?

[GForceLizard]

Titegroup, Solo 1000, N320 and WST are all very good for 147gr 9mm.

[TonyT]

I have never seen any W-W data recommending use of WST in 9mm. I use Bullseye, N=320, N-330 and WSF.

[CocoBolo]

Just came back from a range session testing 9 major, .223, and 9 minor 147gr.

I had two loads 3.5gr of TiteGroup and 3.2gr of Clays. Both were accurate enough and neither showed any signs of pressure. While the TiteGroup was not bad, I didn't find it any softer than TG with 124gr. Now the Clays was very soft. The load 3.2gr of Clays with 147gr Zero JHP set at 1.125 Wincherster Small pistol primer aver fps out of my well worn CZ Shadow 903 132pf SD was 5. The TG was a little faster at 938 fps @139pf with a SD of 11. Temprature 62 degrees.

I'm going to try some Clays with 124gr next. I got the Clays load from All-Gator here on the forum, else I would not have tired it, rumored to be too high pressure, b ut I didn't see any pressure signs.

[21 shooter]

I prefer WSF and Bear Creek Bullets, but to each his own. I think the WSF is a softer shooting powder than WST. You could always get a # of each and see which one shoots best for you.

[njl]

I prefer WSF and Bear Creek Bullets, but to each his own. I think the WSF is a softer shooting powder than WST. You could always get a # of each and see which one shoots best for you.

It shouldn't be. WSF is much slower than WST. It's even slower than Universal.

[CeeZer]

Just came back from a range session testing 9 major, .223, and 9 minor 147gr.

I had two loads 3.5gr of TiteGroup and 3.2gr of Clays. Both were accurate enough and neither showed any signs of pressure. While the TiteGroup was not bad, I didn't find it any softer than TG with 124gr. Now the Clays was very soft. The load 3.2gr of Clays with 147gr Zero JHP set at 1.125 Wincherster Small pistol primer aver fps out of my well worn CZ Shadow 903 132pf SD was 5. The TG was a little faster at 938 fps @139pf with a SD of 11. Temprature 62 degrees.

I'm going to try some Clays with 124gr next. I got the Clays load from All-Gator here on the forum, else I would not have tired it, rumored to be too high pressure, b ut I didn't see any pressure signs.

I'm too playing with Clays lately. Clays is at same burning rate as N320 thou powder charge should be lower. So far, no chrono data; but: I load Berry's 124gr RN plated, Fed SPP, OAL 1.11" (for Shadow).

2.8gr charge barely but reliably cycled Shadow;

3.0gr - no differnce, it seems;

3.2gr - little dif, still very soft;

3.4gr - feels close to my normal load, no pressure signs;

3.3gr - very soft, seems as too soft..

Can hardly wait till I can chrono my ammo. I'm gonna load a few with 3.5gr and 3.6gr in case 3.4gr isn't making PF.

[CocoBolo]

Just came back from a range session testing 9 major, .223, and 9 minor 147gr.

I had two loads 3.5gr of TiteGroup and 3.2gr of Clays. Both were accurate enough and neither showed any signs of pressure. While the TiteGroup was not bad, I didn't find it any softer than TG with 124gr. Now the Clays was very soft. The load 3.2gr of Clays with 147gr Zero JHP set at 1.125 Wincherster Small pistol primer aver fps out of my well worn CZ Shadow 903 132pf SD was 5. The TG was a little faster at 938 fps @139pf with a SD of 11. Temprature 62 degrees.

I'm going to try some Clays with 124gr next. I got the Clays load from All-Gator here on the forum, else I would not have tired it, rumored to be too high pressure, b ut I didn't see any pressure signs.

I'm too playing with Clays lately. Clays is at same burning rate as N320 thou powder charge should be lower. So far, no chrono data; but: I load Berry's 124gr RN plated, Fed SPP, OAL 1.11" (for Shadow).

2.8gr charge barely but reliably cycled Shadow;

3.0gr - no differnce, it seems;

3.2gr - little dif, still very soft;

3.4gr - feels close to my normal load, no pressure signs;

3.3gr - very soft, seems as too soft..

Can hardly wait till I can chrono my ammo. I'm gonna load a few with 3.5gr and 3.6gr in case 3.4gr isn't making PF.

3.5gr Clays with the 124 shot softer than the 147gr w/TiteGroup, I did't get to crono, I shot it in a steel match and by the way the steel was falling I'm confident its in the 130 ish range.

[GForceLizard]

3.7gr of Clays and a 125gr Zero JHP is one of the best 9mm loads I've ever shot.

[njl]

I loaded some X-Treme 147gr plated bullets with 3.5gr WST at 1.140" and shot them recently in my Glocks. It was kind of chilly and windy...and I generally shoot like crap when my hands are cold...so I don't know if this load doesn't agree with my guns or if it was just the cold...but I was not happy with the accuracy. It was very soft shooting and no function problems in everything from the G26 to G34...but I'll have to give this load another try when my hands aren't getting numb.

[eerw]

3.7gr of Clays and a 125gr Zero JHP is one of the best 9mm loads I've ever shot.

+1.

3.6 is my clays load with a MG 124JHP. very very nice.

Edited January 10, 2011 by eerw

[njl]

What kind of velocity are you getting with the 124/125gr loads with 3.5-3.6gr Clays? Somewhere in the 1000-1050fps range?

[njl]

I loaded some X-Treme 147gr plated bullets with 3.5gr WST at 1.140" and shot them recently in my Glocks. It was kind of chilly and windy...and I generally shoot like crap when my hands are cold...so I don't know if this load doesn't agree with my guns or if it was just the cold...but I was not happy with the accuracy. It was very soft shooting and no function problems in everything from the G26 to G34...but I'll have to give this load another try when my hands aren't getting numb.

I shot some more of these today (same load batch) while the weather was a little nicer. They grouped much better. I did some with 3.4gr Universal, and they grouped even better. I think I'm going to load a bunch with Universal.