Ok I am confused

[Iggy42]

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.

From what I have been reading here people have nosedive issues with 9mm mags and .40S&W mags when they are using used brass, but there doesn't seem to be a problem when using virgin brass or any of the major manufacturers ammo (Federal, Winchester, Remington etc.). I am trying to understand this as I am hoping to buy a Witness Limited (in .40 S&W) around the end of January so I am trying to figure out what I am in for. I mostly ask because at this time I do not load my own so I will be using either Atlanta Arms Ammo (I see that they do offer rounds with virgin brass) or store bought factory ammo.

I guess what I am not understanding is whether or not the nosedive exists with virgin brass or store bought factory ammo.

[Glk21C]

I use many times fired brass in my limited. Never any nose dive issues for me. 20+1 consistantely, I think I can get 21+1 in one of them. all Lee Dies in my 550.

[G34 CORDY]

I just bought a Limited and out of 100 rounds of Atlanta Arms .40 1.180 I had one nose dive. I dont reload right now either so that will have to due until I can. I havnt used factory ammo yet.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119568

My old topic goes over this well.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76873

Edited December 24, 2010 by G34 CORDY

[MisterB]

I have run thousands of reloads through my Limited elite without any issues. Actually I did have a couple of problems until I got the overall length figured out.

[Iggy42]

I just bought a Limited and out of 100 rounds of Atlanta Arms .40 1.180 I had one nose dive. I dont reload right now either so that will have to due until I can. I havnt used factory ammo yet.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=119568

My old topic goes over this well.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=76873

Yeah I read the postings but it doesn't address virgin brass hence why I started this thread since all I see people talk about is how that overcame the nose dive as it relates to reloaded brass.

I have run thousands of reloads through my Limited elite without any issues. Actually I did have a couple of problems until I got the overall length figured out.

That is all well and good, but what no one is answering is when it comes to virgin brass. I am very happy that you are running reloads that I assume you are doing yourself, this is not an option for me. As G34 Cordy pointed out he used some Atlanta Arms reloads with a 1.180 OAL (which is the "long" if I remember right) and had a nose dive, to me that is not acceptable. Now that may have been a fluke and I hope as he puts more rounds downrange he keeps us updated, but since I will not be reloading my own I have to find a solution to the nose dives that are so prevalent with Witness Limiteds. Hence why I want to know if people are having a nose dive problem with either factory ammo, or Atlanta Arms virgin brass rounds. Along those lines what mags should I use? I plan on buying tuned mags from Helling in .40S&W since that is all I will be shooting, but I am lost as to whether I should just get the 10mm mags regardless. Yes I know it will allow me to load a longer shell(but again I doing have the option to loading my own, so it will be factory ammo using by and large, maybe some Atlanta Arms virgin brass rounds), but is there any other benefits for a guy that will only be putting one caliber through the gun.

[G34 CORDY]

I cant speak personally for the virgin brass question but I have talked to alot of people including Henning about virgin brass and everyone told me that they didnt have problems with virgin brass but that also was loaded around 1.180 range. Henning runs his loads at 1.175 and when he goes to big matches he uses virgin brass and has nothing but good luck with it. I dont shoot factory loads besides Atlanta Arms and that is going to have to do until I can reload on my own. The mags are the problem with these guns and ammo has to be almost perfect for it to function everytime give or take. These guns dont like being loaded short, alot of people load out to 1.2 to get it to feed properly. Malfuntions are going to happen ie. nose dives ect. Even the expensive STI'S need alittle work to become 100% so the Tanfo is no different. If you want a gun you dont have to worry about using walmart ammo try a glock it will eat anything. Each gun is different and may require differnt things to get it to run 100%. Mine had a nose dive yours might not. Talk to Henning and he can tell you everything you need to know.

[CHA-LEE]

OK, There are two main factors to consider. The brass and the magazine follower setup. When reloading you need straight cases, either by using new brass or resizing the whole case. For off the shelf ammo that is new you will normally not have nose dive issues as long as you are NOT using an aftermarket follower inside the magazine. The standard Red followers are designed with "Legs" that protrude downwards. These "Legs" keep the follower from tipping forward, backward, or sideways when you load the ammo into the magazine. Since the "Legs" keep the follower at the correct angle as it travels up the mag body this also keeps the rounds feeding into the gun at the correct angle.

When you put extended base pads on the magazines in order to get more capacity you must use a legless follower becuase the legs hog up too much space. When you use these legless followers they have a lot less leverage against the rounds and they can feed in less than optimal angles. So even if you are using factory ammo with really straight cases you can still have nose dive issues when using a legless follower. To offset this less than optimal feeding angle you must use rounds that are loaded longer to minimize the chance of the round not hitting the feed ramp and climbing up it into the chamber. I have found that an OAL of 1.225 works the best in my guns.

To make a long story short, if you are using stock magazines with the stock followers you should be fine when using new off the shelf factory ammo. But once you swap followers to a legless version and add an extended base pad you need to run longer rounds and still have stright cases. I have found that undersizing the whole case by pushing it through an EGW U-Die and then loading them to an OAL of 1.225 completely solves the nose dive issue with reloaded ammo. You also need to make sure that the magazine feed lips are kept tuned to the proper width (.385 inch) or you will start to have jamming issues where the round hits the top of the chamber.

[Iggy42]

I cant speak personally for the virgin brass question but I have talked to alot of people including Henning about virgin brass and everyone told me that they didnt have problems with virgin brass but that also was loaded around 1.180 range. Henning runs his loads at 1.175 and when he goes to big matches he uses virgin brass and has nothing but good luck with it. I dont shoot factory loads besides Atlanta Arms and that is going to have to do until I can reload on my own. The mags are the problem with these guns and ammo has to be almost perfect for it to function everytime give or take. These guns dont like being loaded short, alot of people load out to 1.2 to get it to feed properly. Malfuntions are going to happen ie. nose dives ect. Even the expensive STI'S need alittle work to become 100% so the Tanfo is no different. If you want a gun you dont have to worry about using walmart ammo try a glock it will eat anything. Each gun is different and may require differnt things to get it to run 100%. Mine had a nose dive yours might not. Talk to Henning and he can tell you everything you need to know.

Glock <shudder) I feel dirty just thinking about them. I am well aware that the STI mags need a little tuning, but since they are not in my budget (and I don't like plastic) I admittedly have not done a ton of research. I have held off calling Henning mostly because I wanted to wait until I had cash in had to make a purchase.

OK, There are two main factors to consider. The brass and the magazine follower setup. When reloading you need straight cases, either by using new brass or resizing the whole case. For off the shelf ammo that is new you will normally not have nose dive issues as long as you are NOT using an aftermarket follower inside the magazine. The standard Red followers are designed with "Legs" that protrude downwards. These "Legs" keep the follower from tipping forward, backward, or sideways when you load the ammo into the magazine. Since the "Legs" keep the follower at the correct angle as it travels up the mag body this also keeps the rounds feeding into the gun at the correct angle.

When you put extended base pads on the magazines in order to get more capacity you must use a legless follower becuase the legs hog up too much space. When you use these legless followers they have a lot less leverage against the rounds and they can feed in less than optimal angles. So even if you are using factory ammo with really straight cases you can still have nose dive issues when using a legless follower. To offset this less than optimal feeding angle you must use rounds that are loaded longer to minimize the chance of the round not hitting the feed ramp and climbing up it into the chamber. I have found that an OAL of 1.225 works the best in my guns.

To make a long story short, if you are using stock magazines with the stock followers you should be fine when using new off the shelf factory ammo. But once you swap followers to a legless version and add an extended base pad you need to run longer rounds and still have stright cases. I have found that undersizing the whole case by pushing it through an EGW U-Die and then loading them to an OAL of 1.225 completely solves the nose dive issue with reloaded ammo. You also need to make sure that the magazine feed lips are kept tuned to the proper width (.385 inch) or you will start to have jamming issues where the round hits the top of the chamber.

Thank you that is the kind of information I needed. My mags will not contain the stock followers as I am planning on using Henning's 140mm tuned mags. They seem to help some people with the nose dive problems aside from doing steps that are not available to me at this time (named putting the brass through an EGW U-Die) so I am trying to find solutions I can implement when I make my purchase in an effort to solve the problem.

[Sal1950]

EAA Witness Match .40, + a 10mm barrel and Wolff 18# recoil spring for 10mm conversion here.

I reload .40s using Lee dies with the FC crimp die. I've had virtually zero feeding issues using either the factory .40 with spacer, or 10mm mags. Tried a few different OALs and bullet profiles but nothing really gave me any problems.

10mm loaded in same dies tends to be a bit temperamental for me, most FMJ round nose stuff will create the occasional jam with the nose of the bullet hanging on the barrel hood. SWC's or TC bullets cycle with no issues.

Sal

[Iggy42]

Ok so I have been away from this topic for a bit, although I have brought it up on other threads, but I saw that something didn't really get answered. G-man posted up some but didn't really answer the question so I thought I would rehash it.

Are there issues with the Witness Limiteds when using 140mm mags (probably Henning Tuned, unless Mec Gar gets .40 mags out soon, but even then I would be replacing the springs, adding extends basepads and Grams followers) and factory ammo?

Birthday is this weekend and I am really hoping I can pick up something for use in USPSA Limited and a Witness Limited is my current front runner (although if someone in the Harpers Ferry WV area has one that I can check out it would be great since I have not been able to see one with my own eyes) but the feed problems really have me worried. I know that most, if not all, issues are cleared up if you load your own and can re-size the brass through the proper die, but that is not an option for me at this time. Plus all I have seen is related to reloaded brass, whereas nothing has been mentioned with factory rounds.

[B.H.M.]

Ok so I have been away from this topic for a bit, although I have brought it up on other threads, but I saw that something didn't really get answered. G-man posted up some but didn't really answer the question so I thought I would rehash it.

Are there issues with the Witness Limiteds when using 140mm mags (probably Henning Tuned, unless Mec Gar gets .40 mags out soon, but even then I would be replacing the springs, adding extends basepads and Grams followers) and factory ammo?

Birthday is this weekend and I am really hoping I can pick up something for use in USPSA Limited and a Witness Limited is my current front runner (although if someone in the Harpers Ferry WV area has one that I can check out it would be great since I have not been able to see one with my own eyes) but the feed problems really have me worried. I know that most, if not all, issues are cleared up if you load your own and can re-size the brass through the proper die, but that is not an option for me at this time. Plus all I have seen is related to reloaded brass, whereas nothing has been mentioned with factory rounds.

As Cha Lee stated above there are some issues when using aftermarket magazine guts and factory ammo. I tried everything I could find on the shelves and had a lot of issues with factory ammo in all of my Henning Competition mags. The ONLY thing that worked for me was to use the UDie as a push through die. I have to do this with new or used brass. I would have sold my Limited if I did not have the resources to reload. There are people who have great luck with factory ammo, I am just not one of them! Just my two cents...

[Skydiver]

Slight thread drift: I have a friend who is also in the same position where he doesn't have the time or inclination to reload. (He's an overworked executive who values his spare time.) He figured that he makes enough money to afford to buy factory ammo and/or Atlanta Arms to feed his CZ. The funny thing though, is that his CZ was puking on the factory ammo. He had to send his CZ back to Angus at the CZ Custom shop to have them re-tune the gun for factory ammo.

Anyway, consider that as an option if you decide to go with a Limited: send the gun with a couple hundred rounds to either Henning or Rich and see if they can tune the gun to work well with factory ammo.