Case Lube in 9mm? A problem with case gauge failures.

[JasonS]

Go easy on me, I'm still new at this.

Finally got my 650 up and running, and all calbrated right (or so I thought).

However on my first bulk run, I loaded 228 rounds, and 32 of that failed the case gauge.

The receipe is: 9mm, 124 gr Barry's 3.9 gr Titegroup, 1.13 OAL, WSP on mixed (99% mine, all once shot in a STI)

The rounds that fail, appear to have a "coke bottle" shape narrowing, around 80% of the way up the brass, or just under the crimp. These rounds however pass an OAL check.

Dia at the crimp: .380 (correct)

Dia at the narrowing around 80% up the brass .378 (should be .391)

Dia max near slight bulge 25% up the brass: .394 (should be .391)

This leads me to a couple of questions.

Is there an easy answer to what I'm doing wrong?

I wasn't using case lube when I reloaded these: should I be, for 9 mm?

Is it possible this could be an artifact of not "tweaking" the bullet seating straight enough when I settle the bullet onto the brass?

Any suggestions or thoughts, to get the failure level down?

Thanks

Jason

[DougCarden]

Here are a couple things to try.

Take the loaded rounds that wont gauge. Put a couple in the gauge backwards. See if there is a burr on the case rim. If you only had that many, then it may be the case rim on the brass. Also, chances are that the ones that don't gauge will fit just fine in your barrel.....

If the loaded rounds that gauge fall in and out of the gauge without pushing them out, then your crimp is probably fine. If they are hanging up coming out of the gauge, then experiment with the crimp. Make sure the edge is smooth, not sharp. If the case mouth is sharp then the extracted case may hit the sharp edge of the round in the magazine waiting to get stripped out of the magazine and into the chamber.

Just make sure the sizing die is touching the shellplate, but not flexing the plate.

I remember learning to load 9mm....it is a PITA next to .45, but once you figure it out it will be no big deal!

Keep at it,

DougC

[twikster]

Yes, the tapered case creates some problems sometimes. Are you running a carbide sizer die? The brass is all the same make? Did you (gently) deburr the case mouths before loading? I always just spin problematic cases by hand in a Lee shellholder, to check for dented rims and burrs. If you can't sort it out, then the next step is to keep everything else the same, dies, etc, and load in a single station press. This will tell you if it's something about the Dillon that is causing your grief.

Edited December 11, 2010 by twikster

[itchy]

Try using case lube. I use Hornady One Shot. Spray into a zip lock bag then throw some brass in there and shake around for a minute. This is will make the resizing/depriming station run a lot smoother, with less effort.

Some may recommend the EGW undersized die. I personally went back to the Dillon die that came with my press. For some reason the undersized die was causing a bulge in my cases. Although, some people swear by them.

Almost all of my rounds have a coke bottle look to them, oddly narrow between the end of the bullet and the base of the case.

Good luck,

Seiichi

[Sarge]

I agree with everything posted except for twikster. There is absolutely no need to debur anything. And going to a single stage press is not an option. Dillon presses don't cause grief but setting them up initially can and often does.

Coke bottle effect is normal, actually desired, in 9mm because it is a tapered case. Seeing the this means there is plenty of neck tension on the bullet. Thats a good thing. You should be able to get your crimp to around .376-.378 depending on make of brass and actual bullet diameter.

Check your gauge for anything inside. Even a flake of powder stuck in there will cause a round to hang up. I run a Qtip through my gauge every so often. Also, as mentioned, the best gauge is your barrel. I use the barrel when working up a load to make sure oal is going to work since gauges won't tell you that. Then I make sure anything that passes the barrel will pass the gauge and vice versa. This way you can go back to using the gauge with some idea of just how bad the failure has to be before it wont work in your gun. I hope that made sense?

I lube everything just as mentioned above with a bag and one shot but it is not necessary and it won't cause gauge failures in this case.

I load 9mm on Dillon dies as well. I tried the Udie in 9 but it just was not needed and it did occasionally wrinkle brass.

As for seating the bullet straight. You will know when one is crooked there will be a visible buldge on one side.

And sadly, you will eventually see this somewhere else around here if you read a few threads on the subject. When you can, get away from Berry's bullets. When you start measuring your bullet dimensions you will probably see some fluctuation. It seems lots of folks have problems just like you that can be traced back to Berry's. Just look them up and make your own conclusions. Chances are if you order some Montana Gold or ZERO bullets you will have greater success with your loading.

Anyway, the answer is in here somewhere. Good luck.

[lcs]

Answering your first question: Yes, use case lube. Probably has nothing to do with failing the case gauge, but will make loading a lot easier.

I would really recommend a LEE U-die. I use them on all (9,40. 38SC). A LEE U-die isa cheap investment. I have loaded thousands of 9 Major rounds with a U-die out to 1.175 and never had one fail a case gauge. A lot of 9 minor also.

I have loaded 147 Berry to 1.150 so I doubt it is the bullet.

Drop the rounds in the barrel of the gun your running and see what happens.

+1 to Sarge's reply. I would also recommend going to another bullet. Berry is plated. If you crimp a little to much, the bullets will tumble. For the price, you can run a FMJ/CMJ/JHP that is not oversized and not plated.

Edited December 11, 2010 by FullRace

[lugnut]

Many posts and many differing ideas. I love Berrys bullets- they are fine. With 9mm you don't really put a "crimp" on the case... just a taper crimp to remove belling. Berrys won't tumble at all if you don't put an aggressive crimp- which you shouldn't anyway. I would use case lube, but only because it's easier on the arms/cases. I also would not use the Udie- too much work on the brass IMO. I do use the Udie on .40 exclusively however. The only cases I use the Factory Crimp Die are... you guessed it- 9mm. This die really does a good job "cleaning up" the bottom of the case where you are having problems. I found this die helped 99.5% of the brass size well enough to gauge correctly... another .4% or so was from burrs on the rim. The last .1% was just well used, bad brass and would be tossed. Good luck!

Edited December 11, 2010 by lugnut

[dillon]

I suggest breaking things down into smaller steps.

First, size 10 pieces of brass, remove from the machine after resizing. Do they all freely enter the gage fully and fall out freely?

If not, how is the size die adjusted? The bottom of the size die should almost touch the top of the shellplate. Screw it down until

it stops, back up 1/16th of a turn.

Next- .380 is a maximum case mouth dimension. I suggest crimping so it measures .378-.379" with plated bullets. The dimensions in the loading manuals are typically the maximum ones, without giving you any dimensional tolerances. Even in ammo, there are always tolerances.

When you set the dies up in the toolhead, always tighten the die lock rings with cases up in the dies. This makes sure the dies are centered in the toolhead.

[JasonS]

Some responses to the questions:

1. The rounds that fail the case gauge will not cycle into the barrel (by hand) through my Brazo's STI. The will however cycle (by hand again) in my P30L (which I guess is alot less picky.) Regardless I'm doing this to shoot my STI, so it's an issue.

2. "None" of the rounds fit into the case guage backwards. They all stick at the crimp, and won't go in regardless if they go in from the front or not. Maybe that's telling?

(I guess I'm a little fuzzy, on exactly what "should" happen if you load a round into the guage backwards, and I couldn't find the answer on the internet to avoid the stupid question.)

3. I was not previously deburing or using case lube.

4. The dies I am using are straight from Dillion (3 of them) and they came with my 650, that BE helped me order. Station 1 has a sizing/depriming die.

5. The brass was once shot factory, that I shot myself in my STI. It was Remingtom UMC 115g FMJ rounds (the big yellow box) prior to being reloaded.

6. I just bought the Berry's/Titegroup to practice reloading with really, I have a whole big box of MG 147s and N320 just waiting but didn't want to start using that recipe till I had at least some experience with what I was doing.

Thanks again guys for all the help.

Jason

Edited December 11, 2010 by JasonS

[JasonS]

It double posted. Sorry.

Edited December 11, 2010 by JasonS

[DougCarden]

When you put them in backwards, you will only be able to start it in a little bit past the case rim and a little bit of the case. That will tell you if your case rim is buggered up. Sorry if that was confusing.

This is either a brass resizing issue, the bullet is not straight when you seat it issue, or there is not enough crimp.

Another thing to watch with plated bullets is to make sure you bell the case mouth open enough to start the bullet easily.

Try running the rejects through the crimp die again and see if there is any resistance, or measure them first and then again after running them through again.

Keep at it!

DougC

[G-ManBart]

Set your crimp to .375-.377 and see what happens. .380" is too large. R,

[JasonS]

I'll resize the crimp so that it's smaller.

That's not what would cause the brass to narrow like I'm seeing, is it?

[lugnut]

Set your crimp to .375-.377 and see what happens. .380" is too large. R,

Yep- mine are .376-.377 and work fine.

[open17]

I'll resize the crimp so that it's smaller.

That's not what would cause the brass to narrow like I'm seeing, is it?

The reason for "coke bottle" 9mm. 9x19 is a tapered case. Carbide sizing dies are not

tapered. They have a sizing ring that sizes to the smallest required diameter--the case mouth. They size to this diameter almost all the way down. So the case is actually sized

"undersize" from the bullet base to the top of the radius on the sizing die. Dillon dies

have a generous radius on the sizing ring. Other dies not so much radius.

Make sure your sizing die is as far down as possible.

Tighten up your crimp a bit. Don't be surprised if you accuracy goes south with the Berry's.

Break out that box of MG 147's, load em up with 3.3-3.5 N320 at 1.140. Around 132 PF

and VERY soft.

[JasonS]

Thanks for all the help guys.

The problem was apparently a shallow set sizing die. It's working like a champ now.

I've also tightened up the crimp a tad, based upon suggestion.

Thanks again,

Jason