Malfunctions-Competitor's Equipment=Re-shoot?

[d_striker]

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to asuspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

I have seen a couple of competitor equipment malfunctions in the limited number of matches that I've attended so far.

The first instance involved a suspected squib. A squib rod was brought out. I'm not sure if there actually was or wasn't a bullet lodged in the barrel but the competitor received a re-shoot. According to 5.7.7.1, I'm interpreting that had there actually been a bullet lodged in the barrel, the competitor would not receive a re-shoot. If there was not a squib, the competitor receives a re-shoot. Is this correct?

The second instance involved a case head failure. Again, a squib rod was brought out and I'm not sure whether there was a bullet lodged in the barrel or not. The competitor received a re-shoot. Was the re-shoot warranted in this situation?

[Gary Johnson]

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to asuspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a "squib" load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected

problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will

be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor's score

sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the

course of fire will be scored "as shot", including all applicable

misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem

does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the

stage.

I have seen a couple of competitor equipment malfunctions in the limited number of matches that I've attended so far.

The first instance involved a suspected squib. A squib rod was brought out. I'm not sure if there actually was or wasn't a bullet lodged in the barrel but the competitor received a re-shoot. According to 5.7.7.1, I'm interpreting that had there actually been a bullet lodged in the barrel, the competitor would not receive a re-shoot. If there was not a squib, the competitor receives a re-shoot. Is this correct?

The second instance involved a case head failure. Again, a squib rod was brought out and I'm not sure whether there was a bullet lodged in the barrel or not. The competitor received a re-shoot. Was the re-shoot warranted in this situation?

You are correct in the first example. If the RO stops a competitor because he suspects there is a safety issue and it turns out there is none, the competitor must re-shoot.

In the second case the competitor should have been given 2 minutes to reduce the malfunction and continue. If he was unable to return his gun to a serviceable state in the 2 minutes the RO should have stopped him, cleared the stage, and recorded his score.

[AlamoShooter]

IF the barrel is obstructed the gun chould not have continued in use (No reshoot required) if the gun is safe = a ( Reshoot is required)

its best to think of reshoots as Required not granted or given or allowed.

in the case of the RO's big feet in the way , before the shooter knows the time or score the RO can offer a reshoot. If the RO feels he distracted the shooter from a fair attempt at the stage. The shooter must decide before any time or score are known to the shooter.

That is the only time I know of that a reshoot is an Option and not a Requirment

Edited December 9, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[d_striker]

In the second case the competitor should have been given 2 minutes to reduce the malfunction and continue. If he was unable to return his gun to a serviceable state in the 2 minutes the RO should have stopped him, cleared the stage, and recorded his score.

How does the competitor continue? Do they continue from where they stopped on the course? If this is the case, how is the time handled?

[High Lord Gomer]

Correct on the first instance. For the second...

The rules provides a squib as an example of unsafe ammunition. It is not the only type of unsafe ammunition covered by the rule. If it was determined that it was indeed a case separation, then I would consider that to be unsafe ammo and would not grant a reshoot. I would also want to make sure that the gun was still safe to use (undamaged) and that the remaining ammo did not show any visible defects before I would let the shooter continue on the next stage.

[sperman]

In the second case the competitor should have been given 2 minutes to reduce the malfunction and continue. If he was unable to return his gun to a serviceable state in the 2 minutes the RO should have stopped him, cleared the stage, and recorded his score.

How does the competitor continue? Do they continue from where they stopped on the course? If this is the case, how is the time handled?

The clock never stops. His two minutes to clear the malfunction is on the timer, and must be done in a safe manner (i.e. no sweeping, no 180 violation, etc.)

[d_striker]

In the second case the competitor should have been given 2 minutes to reduce the malfunction and continue. If he was unable to return his gun to a serviceable state in the 2 minutes the RO should have stopped him, cleared the stage, and recorded his score.

How does the competitor continue? Do they continue from where they stopped on the course? If this is the case, how is the time handled?

The clock never stops. His two minutes to clear the malfunction is on the timer, and must be done in a safe manner (i.e. no sweeping, no 180 violation, etc.)

Does the 2 minutes to fix the malfunction start the moment the RO declares "Stop" or once a squib rod is brought to him?

Edited December 9, 2010 by d_striker

[Dwight Springthorpe]

As I understand it, once the RO calls 'STOP', there is no continuing the stage. If there was a problem with the gun / ammo then score it as it is, if there was no problem found, then reshoot. Allowing the stage to continue after a 'stop' would be considered interference (reshoot offered). Now if the shooter does not like the way his gun is running and he stops himself to check it, the clock continues for up to 2 minutes of repair time. Once repaired, the shooter can continue with the course. If more than two minutes go with no shots, then the clock will have the time of the last shot and it can be scored.

Please correct me if I am wrong...

[G-ManBart]

In the second case the competitor should have been given 2 minutes to reduce the malfunction and continue. If he was unable to return his gun to a serviceable state in the 2 minutes the RO should have stopped him, cleared the stage, and recorded his score.

How does the competitor continue? Do they continue from where they stopped on the course? If this is the case, how is the time handled?

The clock never stops. His two minutes to clear the malfunction is on the timer, and must be done in a safe manner (i.e. no sweeping, no 180 violation, etc.)

Does the 2 minutes to fix the malfunction start the moment the RO declares "Stop" or once a squib rod is brought to him?

You can't try clearing a squib, and then continue the course of fire. If the RO stops the shooter because of a suspected squib, the gun will be checked to determine if there was a squib. If the barrel is clear, the shooter gets a reshoot. If the barrel has a bullet in it, the stage is scored as shot.

The 2min deal is if you were to have something like a case that didn't extract...you can try to clear the malfunction, and then continue, but you're not going to be able to put a rod down the barrel. R,

[sperman]

Bart,

What rule says you can't put a rod down the barrel? I think the old IPSC rule book forbid you from using tools, but I don't know of anything in the current USPSA rulebook.

[d_striker]

You can't try clearing a squib, and then continue the course of fire. If the RO stops the shooter because of a suspected squib, the gun will be checked to determine if there was a squib. If the barrel is clear, the shooter gets a reshoot. If the barrel has a bullet in it, the stage is scored as shot.

The 2min deal is if you were to have something like a case that didn't extract...you can try to clear the malfunction, and then continue, but you're not going to be able to put a rod down the barrel. R,

Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense.

Let's say you were the RO of the second scenario, in the OP, and you called "Stop" because you knew something was wrong with the gun due to the reaction of the shooter and the last shot sounded abnormal.

What would you have ruled if:

1.) There was no squib, but you visibly saw the case head failure.

2.) There was a squib, but you visibly saw the case head failure.

[d_striker]

Bart,

What rule says you can't put a rod down the barrel? I think the old IPSC rule book forbid you from using tools, but I don't know of anything in the current USPSA rulebook.

I think he's referencing a situation where "Stop" is not called and the competitor is trying to fix a non-catastrophic malfunction.

[GrumpyOne]

In the second case the competitor should have been given 2 minutes to reduce the malfunction and continue. If he was unable to return his gun to a serviceable state in the 2 minutes the RO should have stopped him, cleared the stage, and recorded his score.

How does the competitor continue? Do they continue from where they stopped on the course? If this is the case, how is the time handled?

The clock never stops. His two minutes to clear the malfunction is on the timer, and must be done in a safe manner (i.e. no sweeping, no 180 violation, etc.)

Does the 2 minutes to fix the malfunction start the moment the RO declares "Stop" or once a squib rod is brought to him?

You can't try clearing a squib, and then continue the course of fire. If the RO stops the shooter because of a suspected squib, the gun will be checked to determine if there was a squib. If the barrel is clear, the shooter gets a reshoot. If the barrel has a bullet in it, the stage is scored as shot.

The 2min deal is if you were to have something like a case that didn't extract...you can try to clear the malfunction, and then continue, but you're not going to be able to put a rod down the barrel. R,

Bart beat me to it. Also, how do you use a squib rod (a normal one anyway) without sweeping yourself? Now, I have seen the "T" handle type, where you place it on the ground, stand on the two "wings" with the rod part up in the air, and slide the barrel over it, but they are rare.

[d_striker]

Bart beat me to it. Also, how do you use a squib rod (a normal one anyway) without sweeping yourself? Now, I have seen the "T" handle type, where you place it on the ground, stand on the two "wings" with the rod part up in the air, and slide the barrel over it, but they are rare.

I wondered this as well...Since the competitor's back was to me, I'm not sure if the rod was inserted through the muzzle.

[AlamoShooter]

A quick shooter could strip the slide and look in the breach of the barrel. So it could be completed. I think the real point is the RO has to be sharp and if the shooter has a case separation wait and hold off on saying Stop. the shooter has no choice when an RO says stop = all action must stop. If the shooter has a case separation and can open the slide and see some light in the barrel he could keep in a fair fight.

if the RO helps the shooter by Stopping him the Fight is no longer fair for all.

In the case of a squib round stuck in the barrel on a multi gun stage. The shooter could strip the slide if possible , ground the gun in the dump box and go to the next gun . most events the RO is not quick witted enough to wait and watch, and only interfere if and when required.

The shooter should work his way through the problem in a safe way.

I am not slighting any ROs and I am not makeing a claim of being quick witted

[G-ManBart]

Bart,

What rule says you can't put a rod down the barrel? I think the old IPSC rule book forbid you from using tools, but I don't know of anything in the current USPSA rulebook.

I wasn't think of a rule, just that it's pretty hard to put a rod down the barrel without sweeping yourself....not impossible, so I should have been more specific. R,

[Flexmoney]

To answer the original question in short-hand...

If the shooters stuff screws up...NO reshoot.

Bring stuff that works.

[Skydiver]

Reminds me of a thread I started a couple of months ago: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115700&view=findpost&p=1311917

[kmca]

So, what happens if the RO says stop because of a squib and the competitor has the ability to clear it without sweeping himself?

[wide45]

So, what happens if the RO says stop because of a squib and the competitor has the ability to clear it without sweeping himself?

5.7.7 A squib is automatically an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammo, requiring the RO to stop the competitor. The competitor has no option but to comply. His ability to clear it is not a factor, and can not be considered for a reshoot.

Edited December 11, 2010 by wide45

[Schutzenmeister]

So, what happens if the RO says stop because of a squib and the competitor has the ability to clear it without sweeping himself?

Once the RO calls STOP, you stop. Failure to do so is a DQ in and of itself. (10.6.1) Whether or not the shooter can clear an actual squib (or other gun safety issue) with or without sweeping himself is academic at this point. If there is an actual obstruction of the barrel, then the RO was justified in calling STOP and there is no reshoot. (5.7.7.1) If the safety issue proves to be non-existent, then a reshoot is ordered. (5.7.7.2)

As Flex said ... Bring stuff that works!