VV N320 Documentation / Reloading Manual

[JasonS]

Let me just caveat that I'm new to reloading.

Anyway after some research in this forum, and because it seemed popular, soft shooting, and clean, I decided to order up some VV N320 powder, to load some low recoil minor 9mm / using MG 147 CMJ's and WSP's.

Well in an effort to be thorough I tried to validate some of the loads I've seen in this forum against several reloading handbook loads for 9x19. Unfortunately, "none" of the books I've checked show any data for N320, and even the Vihtavuori website, only lists "1" N320 load for > 145 gr.

What am I missing, why isn't N320 listed for all of the heavier bullet types even in the Vihtavuori documentation? Where should be looking to validate 9x19 max load data for N320?

Thanks,

Jason

[G-ManBart]

You're not really missing anything, the published data really isn't there. What you're seeing is the product of people with a lot of years experience loading, who are working somewhat off the charts. In fact, it's not just 9mm...most of the common .40 loads with N320 aren't documented anywhere either. It's a fast powder, that's near the limit of how fast you can go and still make the power factor you need with heavy bullets in 9mm, but it can be done safely, if you use normal caution.

So, what you can do is take a whole lot of data that people here provide, use that as a guide, err on the conservative side, and work up a load until you get the power factor you want/need. If you approach it that way, you shouldn't be at unsafe levels of pressure.

Unfortunately, it's one of the things that I think we do that's sort of bad here....provide really advanced level loads to anybody who feels like reading it. It's either that, or cut off everybody, which isn't a good outcome either. R,

[Kyle O]

I came across the very same thing when I started here, but over time I learned what works (for me).

If 50 people post that x load works, the you gotta figure on at least some of them being on the level

Just make sure you find a load that several people are posting, reduce it by 10% and start there with your own loading process. Soon you'll be more proficient, and find what works for you.

Just don't be afraid to ask, read, and learn!

Good luck!

[Hannu]

Let me just caveat that I'm new to reloading.

Anyway after some research in this forum, and because it seemed popular, soft shooting, and clean, I decided to order up some VV N320 powder, to load some low recoil minor 9mm / using MG 147 CMJ's and WSP's.

Well in an effort to be thorough I tried to validate some of the loads I've seen in this forum against several reloading handbook loads for 9x19. Unfortunately, "none" of the books I've checked show any data for N320, and even the Vihtavuori website, only lists "1" N320 load for > 145 gr.

What am I missing, why isn't N320 listed for all of the heavier bullet types even in the Vihtavuori documentation? Where should be looking to validate 9x19 max load data for N320?

Thanks,

Jason

That is because that Vihtavuori data was developed a looong time ago, when nobody knew what "IPSC" stands for Other thing is, N#20 is not very dense and 9mm + long/heavy bullet + N320 you end up very easily with compressed load - not a good idea with N320... When you start compressing that kind of powder, things start to change fast. It is little more sensitive to compression when compared (for example) to Clays, because of powder grain shape.

Many US powders are (like Titegroup) are so much easier, do not have to worry about col variance, pressure peaks etc. Nowadays shooters in Finland are begging to get some Titegroup

If you start with 3.3 gr and col is 1.17" or greater, you are perfectly safe with MG 147gr CMJ + N320. If you have to load short... I would choose another powder.

[G-ManBart]

That is because that Vihtavuori data was developed a looong time ago, when nobody knew what "IPSC" stands for Other thing is, N#20 is not very dense and 9mm + long/heavy bullet + N320 you end up very easily with compressed load - not a good idea with N320... When you start compressing that kind of powder, things start to change fast. It is little more sensitive to compression when compared (for example) to Clays, because of powder grain shape.

Many US powders are (like Titegroup) are so much easier, do not have to worry about col variance, pressure peaks etc. Nowadays shooters in Finland are begging to get some Titegroup

If you start with 3.3 gr and col is 1.17" or greater, you are perfectly safe with MG 147gr CMJ + N320. If you have to load short... I would choose another powder.

Where are you getting this? N320 at factory (short) OAL works beautifully in 9mm with heavy bullets (or light bullets). Who says it's more sensitive to compression that other powders? What pressure testing data are you using to say that? You don't have to worry about col variation with other powders? TG is easier than N320? TG is faster, so most or all of those problems should be even worse with TG, plus it's more temperature sensitive (although not terribly so).

N320 is about the perfect powder for what we do (Minor)...heck, maybe the folks in Finland will trade for TG...say 2lbs of TG for every pound of TG?

Edited December 3, 2010 by G-ManBart

[G-ManBart]

Doubled....

Edited December 3, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Graham Smith]

Unfortunately, "none" of the books I've checked show any data for N320, and even the Vihtavuori website, only lists "1" N320 load for > 145 gr.

Welcome to the club. I ran across the same thing and it just takes a certain amount of diligence and research. If you find a bunch of people who seem to know what the heck they are talking about and who have first hand knowledge (very important) of the loads they are listing, then listen to what they have to say then back off on the load and try it yourself.

I'm going through this right now with long range .308 loads and, trust me, these things make pistol reloads a walk in the park - compressed loads at near max pressure - scary stuff. But, the trick is to distinguish between the loads intended for highly specialized use by people who are doing everything on the cutting edge from the loads that Joe Average should be starting with.

[Darrell]

All reloading manuals should be regarded as a guide, the results they got will not be the same you'd get due to altitude, temp, humidity, bullet, barrel, etc. Same goes for data on the forums. If someone post a load with no chrono and accuracy data to back it up, take it with a grain of salt. As a reloader, you have to take the data, apply it to your conditions and firearms by working up a load for your gun starting at the suggested starting load and work up in .2gr increments, or if they just list max, reduce by 10% and work up. In the 30+ years I've been reloading, I've never gotten the same results as the books. Sierra manuals is what I liked best, then Lyman for cast, and Speer. In todays age there are lots of data from the manufacturer online, but the testing isn't as extensive as it was years ago. Keep a good log of your reloads and target data for future ref. I can take a load from my records of 20 years ago and load them today and be pretty close to what I got then. There has been a lot of experimentation in the IPSC/USPSA world with powders not generally use for that caliber by manufacturers, a lot of great loads have been created and data posted for our sport. Search for what you are looking for and evaluate from there. I like Vhit. powders, but found cheaper alternatives to use also. TG being one of my favorites.

[Hannu]

Where are you getting this? N320 at factory (short) OAL works beautifully in 9mm with heavy bullets (or light bullets). Who says it's more sensitive to compression that other powders? What pressure testing data are you using to say that? You don't have to worry about col variation with other powders? TG is easier than N320? TG is faster, so most or all of those problems should be even worse with TG, plus it's more temperature sensitive (although not terribly so).

N320 is about the perfect powder for what we do (Minor)...heck, maybe the folks in Finland will trade for TG...say 2lbs of TG for every pound of TG?

I am getting that from 9x19 pressure gun data we shot a few years ago in Finland.

Certainly you have to be careful with col all the time, but with some powders (specially with compressed loads) you have to be much more careful than with some other powders. If powder is "fast" (I assume you mean more degressive) that is one thing affecting how it works, but there are also several others.

Where you are getting your opinion, that N320 would be "perfect to what we do" ?

My opinion is, I am very happy to be able to use cheap US powders nowadays instead of Vihtavuori

If your load/barrel/chamber are all in good shape both TG and N320 have very small temperature sensitivity. Many shooters seem to think that every variation is because of powder is temp sensitive

TG is about 1.5x more expensive than N320 over there... So we might be able to negotiate some kind of a deal

Edited December 3, 2010 by Hannu

[RePete]

My load is

147gr Frontier or Aim CMJ

3.7gr/N320

Mixed brass

Available primer

OAL - 1.115"

Chronoed at 910.7fps

PF = 133

Fired from a Glock 17

If you are using Unique, then 3.9gr will get you there.

Edited December 4, 2010 by RePete

[JasonS]

I've been trolling through the forum, looking for different MG 147 loads using VV N320. (Including, one "epic" thread on the subject, from last year.)

Mostly people seem to be operating between 3.4 and 3.7 grains of VV N320, with OAL's between 1.125" to 1.15"

I was planning on starting low on powder, probably 3.3 or 3.4 grains, and long on OAL, probably 1.15".

That sound about right?

Jason

[Sarge]

I've been trolling through the forum, looking for different MG 147 loads using VV N320. (Including, one "epic" thread on the subject, from last year.)

Mostly people seem to be operating between 3.4 and 3.7 grains of VV N320, with OAL's between 1.125" to 1.15"

I was planning on starting low on powder, probably 3.3 or 3.4 grains, and long on OAL, probably 1.15".

That sound about right?

Jason

What gun? That makes alot of difference. Look through the threads and find loads for your gun. Use the advice about looking for alot of common data for the gun and combo. 3.3 or 3.4 will be plenty low with a 147 MG CMJ at 1.15.

I loaded 147 MG CMJ with 3.7 @ 1.14 for my G34 and came out around 135.

[JasonS]

I haven't found anyone, who states they've shot that load in my gun. Most everyone seems to be running Glocks.

I am using a High Performance STI Edge in 9mm, and occassionally a HK P30L. The STI will be the prime (practice) gun, I'm reloading for.

Jason

[G-ManBart]

Where you are getting your opinion, that N320 would be "perfect to what we do" ?

Thousands of rounds of 9x19 loaded with N320 and 125, 130, and four different 147gr jacketed bullets in a number of different guns...Glocks, M&Ps, Kahrs, STIs and Sigs that I can remember. It's worked extremely well in every gun, and with all of those bullets. Soft, clean, temperature stable and accurate. It was also much more consistent than some other powder as far as ES and SD. No, I wouldn't go trying to push a heavy bullet as fast as possible with N320 in 9x19, but for 135PF (give or take) it's great. There are other powder that will also do the job nicely, but I haven't tried anything that was as good, all things considered (except price). R,

[G-ManBart]

I haven't found anyone, who states they've shot that load in my gun. Most everyone seems to be running Glocks.

I am using a High Performance STI Edge in 9mm, and occassionally a HK P30L. The STI will be the prime (practice) gun, I'm reloading for.

Jason

I've shot thousands of that basic load through my M&P Pro (5") with both stock and Storm Lake barrels, and it works really well. 3.7gr with a MG 147gr CMJ at 1.125" and a Win SP primer. I've also used Zero 147gr FMJ and JHPs, and Precision Delta 147gr FMJ-TCs with the same specs, and similar results. I'd wager that it'll be close in your Edge. R,

[Hannu]

Thousands of rounds of 9x19 loaded with N320 and 125, 130, and four different 147gr jacketed bullets in a number of different guns...Glocks, M&Ps, Kahrs, STIs and Sigs that I can remember. It's worked extremely well in every gun, and with all of those bullets. Soft, clean, temperature stable and accurate. It was also much more consistent than some other powder as far as ES and SD. No, I wouldn't go trying to push a heavy bullet as fast as possible with N320 in 9x19, but for 135PF (give or take) it's great. There are other powder that will also do the job nicely, but I haven't tried anything that was as good, all things considered (except price). R,

I shot N320 maybe ~20k rounds with production, military reservist etc. 9mm guns. Then I found TG and noticed lower pressure with slightly less powder when I was getting the same PF. I tried N320 in .45 ACP (works ok with heavy bullets, not very good) and .40 S&W (heavy recoil). I do not like to use it at all with 9mm and light bullets, in my opinion 125gr + N320 I can not shoot as fast as compared to (for example) Clays.

I do not know how clean TG is, but my production CZ worked 10.800 shots without cleaning. Load used was S&B brass, Federal 100 primer, TG 3.1gr and H&N 145gr HP loaded to 1.11"

V-V powder lots tend to vary somewhat... I would be rather safe than sorry if you do not have the same lot of powder - start with low charge and work it up.

If you wanna pay close to $200 for 8 lbs of powder, that is your choice and I will respect it I just do not agree that N320 would be "the perfect" or even good powder for many IPSC pistol loads. It is pretty "easy" for .40, but here in US there are so many others too for almost half the price and some (like Clays) that give you a small competitive advantage over N320.

Just be careful when loading long bullets short with 9mm... You end up with pressure level 40.000+ PSI very easily if you fo not know 110% what you are doing.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Hannu

[DougCarden]

Hm.....Yes, Titegroup is cheaper than VV320, but it is made with Nitrocellulose....which means TG burns much hotter, and when practicing or shooting steel matches your gun will get so damn hot it is hard to hang on to it. That is also got to be hard on the gun as far as wear and tear goes too......I don't notice that with VV powders.....

You mention that you are worried about compressed loads, overpressure with VV powder, which is a good thing to be concerned about, but then you talk about .40 loads and mention CLAYS, which is documented on this forum and others for more case head separations and KABOOMs than the VV powders. I tried long loaded .40 with CLAYS, VV310, etc......Good way to find the weak brass when it can't take the high pressure

The problem with CLAYS is that it's pressure spike is unpredictable, and doesn't give you overpressure signs the same everytime.

The VV powders have a linear predictable pressure curve, you will see overpressure signs reliably well before the round is overpressure.

The fact is that VV320 is the most popular minor 9mm powder for what we do, and I am very happy to cut back on going out for a movie or something and spend the extra money for the VV powder. In my testing and experimentation it is far and away the best for what I need to do. I have a bench full of powder I have tried for Major .40, and minor 9mm, and one powder that will do everything you want is VV320.

That has been my experience in the last 10 years or so of using VV powders and now being a commercial reloader.....

Regards,

DougC

[G-ManBart]

I tried N320 in .45 ACP (works ok with heavy bullets, not very good) and .40 S&W (heavy recoil).

Now that is funny right there! If you loaded N320 in .40 and got "heavy recoil", something was seriously wrong. It's right among the softest of .40 powders when used with medium to heavy bullets.

I just do not agree that N320 would be "the perfect" or even good powder for many IPSC pistol loads. It is pretty "easy" for .40, but here in US there are so many others too for almost half the price and some (like Clays) that give you a small competitive advantage over N320.

Now that one is really a hoot Think about the most common cartridges being loaded for USPSA/IPSC, and if you exclude Open, they're 9mm, .40 and .45. In two out of the three, N320 is easily in the top two or three most popular powders, and would used even more if it were less expensive. How so many people can be wrong, for so long, I simply can't imagine.

Seriously, Clays in .40 is even more on the edge of being unsafe...it's much faster than N320 and responds poorly to changes in COL. Even if it makes for a slightly softer load, if someone is worrying about that level of "competitive advantage", I'm not worried about being able to beat them. R,

[rhyrlik]

I can tell you that 3.1 grains of N320 is max but safe under a 147 XTP @ 1.085" judging by case expansion, primer appearance, and Quick Load's math. I'm going to try 3.3 grains @ 1.105 and 1.115" next. So, 3.5 grains at longer OAL's has to be safe. QL says 3.7 grains is max @ 1.150" OAL.

[Hannu]

Hm.....Yes, Titegroup is cheaper than VV320, but it is made with Nitrocellulose....which means TG burns much hotter, and when practicing or shooting steel matches your gun will get so damn hot it is hard to hang on to it. That is also got to be hard on the gun as far as wear and tear goes too......I don't notice that with VV powders.....

So, you wanna guess what is N320 main content I would expect somewhat better knowledge from commercial reloader...

You mention that you are worried about compressed loads, overpressure with VV powder, which is a good thing to be concerned about, but then you talk about .40 loads and mention CLAYS, which is documented on this forum and others for more case head separations and KABOOMs than the VV powders. I tried long loaded .40 with CLAYS, VV310, etc......Good way to find the weak brass when it can't take the high pressure

The problem with CLAYS is that it's pressure spike is unpredictable, and doesn't give you overpressure signs the same everytime.

The VV powders have a linear predictable pressure curve, you will see overpressure signs reliably well before the round is overpressure.

Could you please read my post first before putting words into my mouth ? .40 S&W major is quite different kind of a thing and we should probably discuss about it in different thread ? Just to mention, case head separation is due to improper reloading process and/or too loose chamber for the pressure level used. For certain reasons, .40 S&W is more prone to case failure when compared to for example 9x19.

According to pressure gun data, Clays has very straight pressure curve to the point when you compress it enough. Any powder will give you unpredictable pressure spikes when you squeeze it enough, however Clays allows you to compress it slightly without giving very high pressures. Of course, when you have no idea if you are compressing the powder or not you may get "interesting" results...

If you have erratic pressure spikes with a pistol, you should check your reloading procedure and how much you are compressing powder. Many shooters think there is something wrong with the powder, when they get pressure spikes due to crushed powder.

Partly because of grain shape, N320 pressure curve turns way high almost immediately when you begin compressing it, being also pretty linear to that point, but not as linear as (for example) Clays, specially when pressure is low. That is the same reason to many cracked Opengun slides with Vihtavuori powders, where compressed loads are more common with V-V powders.

My point and concern in this thread : when you load 9x19 with heavy bullets and N320, start carefully.

N310 is not suitable for IPSC pistol loads and generally should not be used. You can use it in loads like .45 ACP 230gr pretty safely, but only if you really know what you are doing.

Btw; what type of pressure gun (SAAMI or CIP) you have used to determine unpredicateble high pressures and different kind of high pressure signs ?

The fact is that VV320 is the most popular minor 9mm powder for what we do, and I am very happy to cut back on going out for a movie or something and spend the extra money for the VV powder. In my testing and experimentation it is far and away the best for what I need to do. I have a bench full of powder I have tried for Major .40, and minor 9mm, and one powder that will do everything you want is VV320.

That has been my experience in the last 10 years or so of using VV powders and now being a commercial reloader.....

Regards,

DougC

Most popular where ? Within Brian Enos forum users ? In Finland definitely yes, where nothing else is reliably available because of Finnish regulations.

I do not go to movies... The way I see it as a shooter; for the same price I can buy 1000 9mm bullets if I buy (for example) TG instead of N320.

Now that is funny right there! If you loaded N320 in .40 and got "heavy recoil"' date=' something was seriously wrong. It's right among the softest of .40 powders when used with medium to heavy bullets.[/quote']

I agree, what was wrong was the powder choice. You should perhaps try some other powders too to find it out by yourself Try for example WST or Clays at first.

Now that one is really a hoot Think about the most common cartridges being loaded for USPSA/IPSC' date=' and if you exclude Open, they're 9mm, .40 and .45. In two out of the three, N320 is easily in the top two or three most popular powders, and would used even more if it were less expensive. How so many people can be wrong, for so long, I simply can't imagine.[/quote']

In my area (ECOUSPSA) I know one guy using N320. How you determine most popular powders ?

So many people are driving Toyota Prius hybrids, so it must be the perfect car Sorry, but I can not share your way of thinking.

Btw; please do not ever use QL to decide if load is safe or not... My QL tells 147gr XTP 1.15" col and N320 3,7gr gives ~38.000 PSI.

[G-ManBart]

Now that is funny right there! If you loaded N320 in .40 and got "heavy recoil"' date=' something was seriously wrong. It's right among the softest of .40 powders when used with medium to heavy bullets.[/quote']

I agree, what was wrong was the powder choice. You should perhaps try some other powders too to find it out by yourself Try for example WST or Clays at first.

I have tried quite a few different powders in .40, and shot ammo that friends have loaded with other powders (in my guns). None have been softer than N320.

I don't mean to be rude, but when I see someone say that they got heavy recoil with N320 and heavy bullets in .40, I'm not going to bother listening to their powder selection advice....sorry, it's just not true, and I know that to be a fact from personal experience.

Now that one is really a hoot Think about the most common cartridges being loaded for USPSA/IPSC' date=' and if you exclude Open, they're 9mm, .40 and .45. In two out of the three, N320 is easily in the top two or three most popular powders, and would used even more if it were less expensive. How so many people can be wrong, for so long, I simply can't imagine.[/quote']

In my area (ECOUSPSA) I know one guy using N320. How you determine most popular powders ?

So many people are driving Toyota Prius hybrids, so it must be the perfect car Sorry, but I can not share your way of thinking.

Having traveled a lot to shoot matches all over the country, and talked to a lot of people about what they're loading, more folks have said they're using N320 or TG than all others.

The Prius isn't even remotely the most popular car, so that point really means nothing.

The folks here are generally the most knowledgeable USPSA/IDPA shooters around. Whenever you read about what the best powder is for either Minor 9 or Major .40 (probably Minor as well), more folks suggest N320 than anything. You're free to think or use whatever you want, but you seem to be in the minority...sorry

For straight 9 Minor, I'd bet that N320, Titegroup and Solo 1K would constitute about 85% of all the folks posting here....all will work nicely, but each one has it's pluses and minuses. R,

Edited December 6, 2010 by G-ManBart

[rhyrlik]

Btw; please do not ever use QL to decide if load is safe or not... My QL tells 147gr XTP 1.15" col and N320 3,7gr gives ~38.000 PSI.

So you'd rather read primers instead?

[Hannu]

When did I mention .40 heavy bullets ? I did not, so if you do not mind, please do not put words into my mouth If you use heavier than 180gr, differences between powders become smaller, maximum pressure level becomes lower with heavier bullets etc.

Many IPSC shooters are known to be so fast they are breaking laws of physics, but you my friend are so far the only one telling me you are getting less recoil (which I understand to be softer recoil) with heavier powder charge and higher muzzle pressure. How would you describe difference between Clays and N320 in .40 ?

Me myself, I hate "soft" recoil, it makes me shoot slow. I want my loads to give sharp and fast but light recoil impulse, like .22 lr with lightweight aluminium slide or 9mm Major with 9.5 oz slide.

Not a single Limited M or GM shooter I have talked with (and who pays for his own powder), is using N320 or other V-V powder. There are more than a few, who say they do not like the recoil of N320. The most popular amongst them seems to be Clays. The competitive edge may not be huge, but why pay more money for something you get disadvantage with ?

Sadly, those shooters are not sharing their knowledge here. They may be training right now and will kick my ass badly in my next match

I do not feel bad to in minority and not to belong into "the big mass", in fact I think it is a priviledge

G-ManBart, to call you rude never crossed my mind. I hope you do not think myself as a bad guy, so we can go for beer together if we see each other sometime

So you'd rather read primers instead?

What I would like to do, is to shoot a few rounds through pressure barrel and see what it is telling. Rule of thumb; if a load is safe in a pressure barrel it is safe by some margin in every IPSC pistol. There are few different methods developed to find out the exact pressure in regular gun based on pressure reading, but that info is the property of my earlier employee and it is pretty long story so I will not share it here.

Unfortunately, primers can not be always considered as reliable pressure signs. For example, slightly long headspace or loose chamber rear end can make primers look like the pressure would be 2x than what it actually is. If you have longer brass it can look ok, but as soon as you switch to short brass you get high pressure signs. .005" difference in brass length can make a noticeable difference on how the primer looks.

For regular handloader, case head expansion seems to be the most reliable. Yes, brass expands more in looser chamber (even on unsupported area), but you should keep in mind that the looser the chamber is, the lower pressure you can safely use.

Just keep in mind, do not reload the same brass again and again if you are testing different powders. For example, pick up a box of brand new brass and use every one only once for testing purposes to maintain comparability.

In some cases where you know your own gun and what kind of habits it has, know that headspace is right etc. you can see differences in pressure levels from a primer when you test powders with quite similar degressivity or progressivity. If powder is "fast" or "slow" in theory, it does not tell how it actually performs without knowing other specification of the powder. If you look (for example) burning rate chart found at www.hodgdon.com, you can see some weird things about burning rates when you compare them to real life.

There are several important things QL can not take into account, one major thing being changes in powder lots. It is problem specially with companies that produce powder in small quantities, like V-V civilian powders. Other things being freebore dimensions, case capacity, primer type etc. For example, freebore dimensions have very big effect in how the powder is gonna work. Effect of the freebore is much bigger with uncoated pistol powders than with typical rifle powders/chambers.

I could write a book about this topic, so if somebody is really interested we should probably continue this in separate thread.

[lugnut]

Guys- not sure where you haven't been looking... but it's in the guide from VV I have. Hornady HP/XTP 147gr are in there. 3.9gr max N320.

Weight Type Mfg. C.O.L. Type Weight Velocity Weight Velocity

[g] [grs] [mm] [in.] [g] [grs] [m/s] [fps] [g] [grs] [m/s] [fps]

9,5 147 HP/XTP Hornady 29,0 1,142 N320 0,20 3,1 239 784 0,25 3,9 298 978

Edited December 6, 2010 by lugnut

[rhyrlik]

I use primers, QL, and case expansion. I know my gun well enough to determine max pressure. I figure since people load 9mm Major which approaches or exceeds 50000 PSI, whatever powder lot variance exists won't blow me up at SAAMI spec pressure levels.