First attempt reloading

[kasen]

I just got my new 550b from Brian Enos and tried reloading .223 for the very first time, an absolute newbie. I'm having a problem understanding how the neck should be re-sized to accommodate the bullet. Here's what I've got going in order:

- Once shot Lake City brass head spaced in stage 1 of the press (case correctly fits into the headspace gauge)

- Next I trim in the (very expressive) Giraud Power Trimmer to 1.75 length

- Back into the 550 press for priming in stage 1

- Stage 2 powder drop works fine (but doesn't flare the neck like the 9mm powder drop does...)

- Stage 3 is the problem, here I'm supposed seat the bullet, which in this case is a Sierra .224 55grain SPT round.

The bullet does not come close to easily fitting into the case neck. Two questions for anyone nice enough to help me out:

1. Why is the bullet not easily fitting into the case for Stage 3? Because it's not a boat tail or because I've not setup the press correctly on the first two stages?

2. Does my process above so far make sense?

Thanks very much!

[Corey]

its not going to fit in the neck, but should be able to balance on top. if it fit easy into the neck, there wouldnt be enough tension to hold it and it would come out easy too. i dont load my .223 stuff on my dillon tho, just use a singel stage still, but i make sure to put a light chamfer on the inside of the case (you need to after trimming anyway)and even flat base bullets will sit in there enough to got into the seating die.

[High Lord Gomer]

On the second ass through the press, in Station 1 I have a neck sizing die which also has a depriming pin. The neck sizing die goes inside the case to make surethe mouth is of sufficient size and not dented in at all. The depriming pin ensuresthat the flash hole is clear of (usually corn cobb media) anything.

Even with that, I still have to hold the bullet on top of the case and ride it upward until it has entered the seating die.

[CZinSC]

On the second ass through the press, in Station 1 I have a neck sizing die which also has a depriming pin. The neck sizing die goes inside the case to make surethe mouth is of sufficient size and not dented in at all. The depriming pin ensuresthat the flash hole is clear of (usually corn cobb media) anything.

Even with that, I still have to hold the bullet on top of the case and ride it upward until it has entered the seating die.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I always have a problem with the second "ass" through the press........

[High Lord Gomer]

Doh!

P-p-p-p-pass!

[kasen]

I'll give it another shot. Thanks guys.

[Powder Finger]

I just got my new 550b from Brian Enos and tried reloading .223 for the very first time, an absolute newbie. I'm having a problem understanding how the neck should be re-sized to accommodate the bullet. Here's what I've got going in order:

- Once shot Lake City brass head spaced in stage 1 of the press (case correctly fits into the headspace gauge)

- Next I trim in the (very expressive) Giraud Power Trimmer to 1.75 length

- Back into the 550 press for priming in stage 1

- Stage 2 powder drop works fine (but doesn't flare the neck like the 9mm powder drop does...)

- Stage 3 is the problem, here I'm supposed seat the bullet, which in this case is a Sierra .224 55grain SPT round.

The bullet does not come close to easily fitting into the case neck. Two questions for anyone nice enough to help me out:

1. Why is the bullet not easily fitting into the case for Stage 3? Because it's not a boat tail or because I've not setup the press correctly on the first two stages?

2. Does my process above so far make sense?

Thanks very much!

throw up some measurements please,

OD of neck after firing (your chamber)

OD of neck after sizing (your die)

OD of neck after seating a bullet

OD of bullet used (.224/.2243/.2245 ETC...)

[kasen]

I managed to get Stage 3 to seat the bullet, easy enough, just had to hold the bullet until it entered the die. Now I'm onto the crimping die and hoping I'm crimping the bullet tight enough. My concern is that if it's not crimped enough the bullet could get pushed into the casing reducing the OAL and increasing chamber pressure when fired...

Here's the numbers:

Bullet diam .2245

Uncrimped & unseated casing at neck .246

Uncrimped & seated casing at neck .247

Crimped casing at neck .245

Is the .002 reduction in case neck size adequate for a good crimp? I had it even tighter before but it seemed to cut into the copper jacket of the bullet. Here's some pics, looks like I'm mashing the case shoulder with the powder die so I've been raising that back up. Also getting some small indents on the should and slight creasing on the case. Not sure what that's from...

[Powder Finger]

I managed to get Stage 3 to seat the bullet, easy enough, just had to hold the bullet until it entered the die. Now I'm onto the crimping die and hoping I'm crimping the bullet tight enough. My concern is that if it's not crimped enough the bullet could get pushed into the casing reducing the OAL and increasing chamber pressure when fired...

Here's the numbers:

Bullet diam .2245

Uncrimped & unseated casing at neck .246

Uncrimped & seated casing at neck .247

Crimped casing at neck .245

Is the .002 reduction in case neck size adequate for a good crimp? I had it even tighter before but it seemed to cut into the copper jacket of the bullet. Here's some pics, looks like I'm mashing the case shoulder with the powder die so I've been raising that back up. Also getting some small indents on the should and slight creasing on the case. Not sure what that's from...

Those number's were'nt quite what I was after let me say this way

Measure about mid way on the neck

don't use the expanderball just size the out side.

1) Neck OD right out of the chamber after fired (should be something like .254)

2) Neck OD after you size it in your sizing die (should be something like .243)

3) Neck OD after you size it with the expander in place

4) Neck OD after fully seating the bullet (should be something like .250 depending on neck thickness which might be .012-.014)

as far as crimp goes I don't, you might want to as it looks like those bullets have a canalure.

What the numbers are for is this: if your size die produces .243 OD then you seat a bullet and you end up with .250 what you are doing is using the bullet to

expand the neck, not good for a bullet.

At the point where you are going to seat a bullet the increase in OD after the bullets in should be around .004 (.246 before .250 after seating bullet).

this will give you plenty of grip for mag fed ammo.

Where I was going in the end with this is since you are taking the case out to feed to the electric brass eater I would do this,

Get an extra tool head for the 550 and mount and adjust your size die.(toss the expander and just keep the deprime stem)

In the other tool head at

POS#1 put a separate neck ID sizing manrel

POS#2 is for powder

POS#3 seat your bullet

POS#4 crimp or no crimp

the thing with crimp is that you usually sqish a prefectly good bullet if you load some dummy rounds with .003-.004 constiction

on the bullet and cycle them through your action I think you will not see any bullet setback.

a tool head is about $21

a Sinclair mandrel is about $30 with a mandrel

What you gain is that you are expanding the neck with a far more accurate tool so you necks should be staighter

you can control the neck ID with mandrel choice so the bullet grip is only what you need and not sizing with the bullet.

The dent in the first picture looks like it may be too much case lube.

The dents in the second picture look like they were caused when ejected from the rifle.

I would'nt worry about them too much thet are pretty small.

Make sure the only thing that touches the case shoulder is your sizing die!

Edited November 17, 2010 by Powder Finger

[kasen]

Thanks Powder Finger! I'll really dig the idea of running a second tool head. Hate to spend more money but I'm looking at reloading ~1000 rounds per month so might as well get it setup right.

[benos]

The bullet does not come close to easily fitting into the case neck. Two questions for anyone nice enough to help me out:

1. Why is the bullet not easily fitting into the case for Stage 3? Because it's not a boat tail or because I've not setup the press correctly on the first two stages?

2. Does my process above so far make sense?

Thanks very much!

As was mentioned, you will have to hold flat base bullets on the case until the bullet is partially inside the seat die. Especially w/o neck sizing after trimming. But that won't be a problem though - you will just end up with a little extra case mouth tension on the bullet. Which isn't a bad thing, for an auto-loader.

be

[kasen]

I managed to get Stage 3 to seat the bullet, easy enough, just had to hold the bullet until it entered the die. Now I'm onto the crimping die and hoping I'm crimping the bullet tight enough. My concern is that if it's not crimped enough the bullet could get pushed into the casing reducing the OAL and increasing chamber pressure when fired...

Here's the numbers:

Bullet diam .2245

Uncrimped & unseated casing at neck .246

Uncrimped & seated casing at neck .247

Crimped casing at neck .245

Is the .002 reduction in case neck size adequate for a good crimp? I had it even tighter before but it seemed to cut into the copper jacket of the bullet. Here's some pics, looks like I'm mashing the case shoulder with the powder die so I've been raising that back up. Also getting some small indents on the should and slight creasing on the case. Not sure what that's from...

Those number's were'nt quite what I was after let me say this way

Measure about mid way on the neck

don't use the expanderball just size the out side.

1) Neck OD right out of the chamber after fired (should be something like .254)

2) Neck OD after you size it in your sizing die (should be something like .243)

3) Neck OD after you size it with the expander in place

4) Neck OD after fully seating the bullet (should be something like .250 depending on neck thickness which might be .012-.014)

as far as crimp goes I don't, you might want to as it looks like those bullets have a canalure.

What the numbers are for is this: if your size die produces .243 OD then you seat a bullet and you end up with .250 what you are doing is using the bullet to

expand the neck, not good for a bullet.

At the point where you are going to seat a bullet the increase in OD after the bullets in should be around .004 (.246 before .250 after seating bullet).

this will give you plenty of grip for mag fed ammo.

Where I was going in the end with this is since you are taking the case out to feed to the electric brass eater I would do this,

Get an extra tool head for the 550 and mount and adjust your size die.(toss the expander and just keep the deprime stem)

In the other tool head at

POS#1 put a separate neck ID sizing manrel

POS#2 is for powder

POS#3 seat your bullet

POS#4 crimp or no crimp

the thing with crimp is that you usually sqish a prefectly good bullet if you load some dummy rounds with .003-.004 constiction

on the bullet and cycle them through your action I think you will not see any bullet setback.

a tool head is about $21

a Sinclair mandrel is about $30 with a mandrel

What you gain is that you are expanding the neck with a far more accurate tool so you necks should be staighter

you can control the neck ID with mandrel choice so the bullet grip is only what you need and not sizing with the bullet.

The dent in the first picture looks like it may be too much case lube.

The dents in the second picture look like they were caused when ejected from the rifle.

I would'nt worry about them too much thet are pretty small.

Make sure the only thing that touches the case shoulder is your sizing die!

Finally got around to setting up the press with the Sinclair mandrel on stage 1. As pictured, I'm looking at taking the expander out of the Dillon die and only using the depriming stem. The Giraud trimmer requires the case shoulder to be resized before it can be trimmed. If I remove the second section of this die (from bottom up) which I believe to be the expander then I'll benefit from less stress of the case neck, better sizing from the mandrel, and resized shoulder which will still fit the Giraud trimmer, correct??

[Powder Finger]

I managed to get Stage 3 to seat the bullet, easy enough, just had to hold the bullet until it entered the die. Now I'm onto the crimping die and hoping I'm crimping the bullet tight enough. My concern is that if it's not crimped enough the bullet could get pushed into the casing reducing the OAL and increasing chamber pressure when fired...

Here's the numbers:

Bullet diam .2245

Uncrimped & unseated casing at neck .246

Uncrimped & seated casing at neck .247

Crimped casing at neck .245

Is the .002 reduction in case neck size adequate for a good crimp? I had it even tighter before but it seemed to cut into the copper jacket of the bullet. Here's some pics, looks like I'm mashing the case shoulder with the powder die so I've been raising that back up. Also getting some small indents on the should and slight creasing on the case. Not sure what that's from...

Those number's were'nt quite what I was after let me say this way

Measure about mid way on the neck

don't use the expanderball just size the out side.

1) Neck OD right out of the chamber after fired (should be something like .254)

2) Neck OD after you size it in your sizing die (should be something like .243)

3) Neck OD after you size it with the expander in place

4) Neck OD after fully seating the bullet (should be something like .250 depending on neck thickness which might be .012-.014)

as far as crimp goes I don't, you might want to as it looks like those bullets have a canalure.

What the numbers are for is this: if your size die produces .243 OD then you seat a bullet and you end up with .250 what you are doing is using the bullet to

expand the neck, not good for a bullet.

At the point where you are going to seat a bullet the increase in OD after the bullets in should be around .004 (.246 before .250 after seating bullet).

this will give you plenty of grip for mag fed ammo.

Where I was going in the end with this is since you are taking the case out to feed to the electric brass eater I would do this,

Get an extra tool head for the 550 and mount and adjust your size die.(toss the expander and just keep the deprime stem)

In the other tool head at

POS#1 put a separate neck ID sizing manrel

POS#2 is for powder

POS#3 seat your bullet

POS#4 crimp or no crimp

the thing with crimp is that you usually sqish a prefectly good bullet if you load some dummy rounds with .003-.004 constiction

on the bullet and cycle them through your action I think you will not see any bullet setback.

a tool head is about $21

a Sinclair mandrel is about $30 with a mandrel

What you gain is that you are expanding the neck with a far more accurate tool so you necks should be staighter

you can control the neck ID with mandrel choice so the bullet grip is only what you need and not sizing with the bullet.

The dent in the first picture looks like it may be too much case lube.

The dents in the second picture look like they were caused when ejected from the rifle.

I would'nt worry about them too much thet are pretty small.

Make sure the only thing that touches the case shoulder is your sizing die!

Finally got around to setting up the press with the Sinclair mandrel on stage 1. As pictured, I'm looking at taking the expander out of the Dillon die and only using the depriming stem. The Giraud trimmer requires the case shoulder to be resized before it can be trimmed. If I remove the second section of this die (from bottom up) which I believe to be the expander then I'll benefit from less stress of the case neck, better sizing from the mandrel, and resized shoulder which will still fit the Giraud trimmer, correct??

The short collar in your pic is the expander. I don't know if you can get rid of it on a Dillon die and still attach the decap pin, either way if it's needed for the decap just turn it down smaller so it doesn't touch the neck. Also you really want the neck expanded on a mandrel after the case is sized. You are taking a hole that was made smaller by sizing but mat not be round on the inside where the bullet lives and making it round and bigger with the mandrel so the bullet is happy

Nevermind about the above I forgot about the second tool head so it's already sized.

Another note to remember the trimmer of choice does not matter you should always size then trim. The brass gets longer because you put it in a container (size die) and made it smaller around, so the brass has to go somewhere and that's the only opening left in the die (forward or up).

so the brass gets a little longer. Your trimmer sets off of the case shoulder so it is probably more important to size first.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Powder Finger

[kasen]

Ok, well I think I've finally got this process under control. I'll resize (which is necessary to even fit into the Giraud), deprime and trim. Then back to press with the mandrel and on complete the reload process from there. Thanks for your help Powderfinger

[Powder Finger]

Ok, well I think I've finally got this process under control. I'll resize (which is necessary to even fit into the Giraud), deprime and trim. Then back to press with the mandrel and on complete the reload process from there. Thanks for your help Powderfinger

Cool deal. Let us hear how it works or any questions. Also a fairly huge amount of no nonsence info is from G. Salazar a long range high power shooter in the Phoenix area on his site. Mostly .308, 30-06, 6MM stuff but it applies generally to most rifle stuff.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/

[noylj]

Since when has reloading gotten so difficult? Why are you going through so many convolutions that might not even have an effect of target.

Now, I am not into benchrest shooting, so I have to express ignorance, since every one understood you, but what did you mean by "Once shot Lake City brass head spaced in stage 1 of the press (case correctly fits into the headspace gauge)"

I have never heard of head spacing on a press.

Are you neck-sizing only? If so, are you using a bushing that will give you the correct neck ID? Except for Lee's collet sizing die (which is a different animal), the bushing dies I know of require a neck expander on the depriming rod or all case necks must be uniform in thickness to ensure that the case mouth ID is 0.001-0.002" under bullet diameter.

Also, I have never found any increased accuracy in my commercial rifles from neck sizing and have stopped playing that game. I want rounds that easily chamber and have "acceptable" accuracy--sub-1" on my AR, 0.75" for my Ruger .30-06, and 1.25" in my Win M94 .30-30.

Next, I resize and measure my brass and trim as required. Everything else is done progressively. For 35+ years, I have never had a problem with a bottleneck case seating the bullet as long as I rested the bullet over the case mouth and slowly seat the bullet.

If you absolutely want to bell/flare the case mouth, there are belling dies made of lead bullet loads you could use. That would also mean that you would need a crimp die. Again, all that does is complicate a simple operation. There is a reason why rifle die sets for YEARS have only contained two dies.

[kasen]

Since when has reloading gotten so difficult? Why are you going through so many convolutions that might not even have an effect of target.

Now, I am not into benchrest shooting, so I have to express ignorance, since every one understood you, but what did you mean by "Once shot Lake City brass head spaced in stage 1 of the press (case correctly fits into the headspace gauge)"

I have never heard of head spacing on a press.

Are you neck-sizing only? If so, are you using a bushing that will give you the correct neck ID? Except for Lee's collet sizing die (which is a different animal), the bushing dies I know of require a neck expander on the depriming rod or all case necks must be uniform in thickness to ensure that the case mouth ID is 0.001-0.002" under bullet diameter.

Also, I have never found any increased accuracy in my commercial rifles from neck sizing and have stopped playing that game. I want rounds that easily chamber and have "acceptable" accuracy--sub-1" on my AR, 0.75" for my Ruger .30-06, and 1.25" in my Win M94 .30-30.

Next, I resize and measure my brass and trim as required. Everything else is done progressively. For 35+ years, I have never had a problem with a bottleneck case seating the bullet as long as I rested the bullet over the case mouth and slowly seat the bullet.

If you absolutely want to bell/flare the case mouth, there are belling dies made of lead bullet loads you could use. That would also mean that you would need a crimp die. Again, all that does is complicate a simple operation. There is a reason why rifle die sets for YEARS have only contained two dies.

I'm not sure I'm really in a good position to answer when reloading got difficult as I have no other points of reference than my Dillon DVD, loading manuals, and this thread.

Regarding the headspace gauge it came with the press and looks like the one pictured. Its my understanding that its beneficial to have your resized cases fit the gauge... Before stage 1 no good fit, after stage 1 they fit. So I guess stage 1 adjusts the head space. But I'm new and looking for accurate info so feel free to let me know if I'm misinformed. I think my process is not too much different than yours outlined above, resize-deprime (done in one step), next trim-chamfer (also one step), swag the primer pocket to decrimp, and then through the progressive press for the rest... If there's a faster way I'm game!

Edited December 14, 2010 by kasen

[Powder Finger]

After sizing Kasen is running all brass through a power trimmer, (if I had one of those i'd be using the heck out of it, nice tool).

Now when the brass goes back in the press he has an extra station where the Sinclair mandrel inside sizes the neck. The expanders on even the best factory dies IMHO are not condusive to keeping a case neck straight. I'm sure he's full length sizing, neck sizing and semi autos don't mix, actually neck sizing and most bolt guns don't either. Either way from his described process he's not adding any steps. For the cost of a tool head and a mandrel he has a very high chance of making really good ammo. Personally I've tryed to make the most accurate ammo I could even if the end use didn't warrant it.

The only thing I would do different is to float the dies in the tool head and at some point maybe add a better sizer seater.