Armorer issue with reloads

[genbrad]

I'm a police officer and was told today that AR's, specifically Rock River AR's, do not like reloads.... This was told to me by my departments rifle instructor which was told to him by the instructor of his armorer's school. The issue is with primers falling out (?????) and falling into the receiver (again ?????). He won't let us use reloads to train with or qualify with. I found this extremely unusual because the issues would be with the one reloading and not the products from my expierence. Has anyone heard anything even close to this?

[jaredr]

The issue is with primers falling out (?????) and falling into the receiver (again ?????).

i guess your armorer won't allow XM193 either just being a smart-ass, XM193 has been notorious for over-pressure rounds which result in the primer being blown out of the cartridge and then occasionally falling into the fire control group in the lower receiver or getting caught behind on the barrel lugs. either scenario ties up the gun.

I could understand requiring officers to qualify with duty rifle ammo as reloads may have different external ballistics (i.e. may have a different point of impact vs. point of aim) than duty ammo, especially if you are qualifying at 100 yds or further tho I don't know any departments that qualify beyond 100 yards for general officers with issued patrol rifle. At 50 yards or closer, almost anything coming out of an AR barrel (except subsonic) is going to hit the same place, so requiring people to do all their up close carbine training with expensive stuff like trophy bonded core is unfortunate and (my opinion) wasteful.

Not sure why your armorer would disallow use of reloads for training (or why he would think that any brand of firearm "doesn't like" reloaded ammo). I'd say those concerns are based on misinformation or just bad tradition,

[G-ManBart]

I'm a police officer and was told today that AR's, specifically Rock River AR's, do not like reloads.... This was told to me by my departments rifle instructor which was told to him by the instructor of his armorer's school. The issue is with primers falling out (?????) and falling into the receiver (again ?????). He won't let us use reloads to train with or qualify with. I found this extremely unusual because the issues would be with the one reloading and not the products from my expierence. Has anyone heard anything even close to this?

Yeah, that's the typical line they throw out there. If I was responsible for an agency/department's weapons, I'd probably say no reloads too....I know my ammo would be safe, but I don't trust most other people's ammo at all. Simply put, they don't want to explain things if something happens.

I have an issued Rock River (M4 pattern with 14.5" barrel etc) and I haven't seen any tendency for it to be picky about ammo at all. If you're looking for reasonable factory ammo to train with, I can point you to Hornady training ammo that runs $280/K last time I checked....send me a PM. I would post it, but every time I do that, with anything similar, the source gets flooded with orders and sells out. Anybody here...fire me a PM and I'll pass it along. R,

Edited November 9, 2010 by G-ManBart

[RangerTrace]

A few years ago, when we transitioned from Mini-14s to the Bushmaster M4s, we had quite a few rifles lock up with primers falling out of new factory Winchester ammo.

[calishootr]

maybe as a dept. depending on how many officers are in it, they want to minimize the problems they are/or may have with the rifles??? i would think it would be an armorer's nightmare if everyone was allowed to shoot their own ammo, and the guns started to have problems, well you have 20+(for a round number) different kinds of ammo being used, trying to figure out the stoppages/jams from one gun to the next could be problematic. like Bart said, i trust my ammo, nt a lot of other people's stuff...

[Gabe Athouse]

I'm a police officer and was told today that AR's, specifically Rock River AR's, do not like reloads.... This was told to me by my departments rifle instructor which was told to him by the instructor of his armorer's school. The issue is with primers falling out (?????) and falling into the receiver (again ?????). He won't let us use reloads to train with or qualify with. I found this extremely unusual because the issues would be with the one reloading and not the products from my expierence. Has anyone heard anything even close to this?

Sometimes its easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

I think if you make quality ammo and pay attention to C.O.L. and making sure your primers are seated properly and that the primer pocket isn't loose you should be ok. If they all go bang and the brass ejects is anyone going to really notice? I know I've never had anyone come over and inspect what was in my magazines.

***NOTE- im only refering to ammo for quals and training, not duty rounds***

[genbrad]

yeah, i'm just saying training. I use only issued ammo for duty, but they don't provide funds or ammo for "practice." Yet we are expected to maintain proficency.... Our armorers are SWAT guys who have unlimited county funds to buy ammo and don't understand how much ammo costs for the type of training needed to truely stay proficient. It's easy to shoot perfect groups when you get about 600 rounds a month and get paid to shoot them.... I shoot IDPA with my department issued XD45 and use nothing but reloads in it when competing or practicing because I can reload for half the cost (free brass is nice). I know there is no way they can watch me every minute to ensure I don't use reloads as we have about 60 patrol rifle certified officers.... I'm also trying to show them that my reloads are as accurate if not more accurate than the federal stuff they provide for requals. So no one has any data to backup what I'm being told???? I didn't expect it because I spoke with a gunsmith friend of mine who designed most of the DPMS line and he had no idea what I was talking about. Think it's a CYA thing for the department.... Just venting and upset because on my rifle rounds I hand inspect each round and hand weigh each charge, I only do this about every 10th round of 45acp.

[calishootr]

GenBrad,

sounds like you are the exception to the rule, as you said you inspect every rifle round, which is great, tho, who is to say, that some other people use whatever is 'on sale' at 'gunshow bob's' table??? as you surmised it's a CYA thing for the dept.

[fastmtnbiker33w]

Too funny. When I was a kid, the local PD had a Camdex. ALL their ammo was reloads. I saw that thing in action when I was about 8 years old. I was fascinated. Not sure if they still use it, but I bet there are plenty of departments out there that reload their own stuff.

It's even funnier that people had trouble with factory ammo. Well...not funny. You know what I mean.

[jmurch]

Does he just hand out the guns or actually work on them?

(Edit) -> There's the answer: 'Our armorers are SWAT guys '

I have 2 RR ARs one I have worn out 3 barrels on shooting across the course competiton and it has NEVER seen a single round of factory ammo. The only time I have ever popped a primer is when I thought I could load my Lake City cases a 9th time.

Jeff

Edited November 12, 2010 by jmurch

[genbrad]

I agree, I've had one malfunction in the 8 or so years I've reloaded now. And it was my like 10th round ever loaded. The bullet wasn't crimped enough and fell out I've never seen him work on the AR's, just train us on them.

Edited November 15, 2010 by genbrad

[Patrick Sweeney]

To mis-quote Shakespeare, from Julius Caesar; "the fault, dear Brutus lies not with our stars, but ourselves."

The problem is not with the ammo, but the chamber. If your rifle has a .223 chamber, instead of a 5.56 chamber (and they do differ) then you will eventually experience pressure spikes, blown primers, and tied-up guns.

You need a Michiguns .223/5.56? gage, to see what you have. (No, you cannot depend on the markings, unless it is a Colt) If you have a .223, you'll need a 5.56 finish reamer, or the reamer to go with the .223/5.56? gage.

Accuracy won't change pressure spikes will go away.

(And that is why XM-193 blows primers. It gets fed into .223-chambered rifle,s and the pressure spikes.)

[tk4]

To mis-quote Shakespeare, from Julius Caesar; "the fault, dear Brutus lies not with our stars, but ourselves."

The problem is not with the ammo, but the chamber. If your rifle has a .223 chamber, instead of a 5.56 chamber (and they do differ) then you will eventually experience pressure spikes, blown primers, and tied-up guns.

You need a Michiguns .223/5.56? gage, to see what you have. (No, you cannot depend on the markings, unless it is a Colt) If you have a .223, you'll need a 5.56 finish reamer, or the reamer to go with the .223/5.56? gage.

Accuracy won't change pressure spikes will go away.

(And that is why XM-193 blows primers. It gets fed into .223-chambered rifle,s and the pressure spikes.)

Can you use the 556 finish reamer on a chrome lined chamber?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Sure can. "But, but, it will ream off the chrome!" Yep. That is, any chrome left after the first few hundred rounds, which have probably already eroded the chrome in the leade.

No change in accuracy, at least none any of us have been able to see.

[RePete]

I found the primer falling out seemed to only occur using Federal brass that had been fired in a gas gun. The primer pockets opened up.

Federal brass fired from a bolt didn't have this problem.