Miss penalties only or FTE/procedurals?

[BayouSlide]

Here's the stage and circumstances:

Two strings, Virgina count. The stage briefing calls for the shooter to engage T1-6 freestyle with one round each, mandatory reload, then engage T1-6 with one round each stronghand. Second string: one round each freestyle, mandatory reload, then one round each weakhand. On the second string, a competitor stops himself with a squib load before engaging the last target (or two) weakhand. The question was whether the competitor should receive merely the miss penalties or also receive FTEs/procedurals for the final target(s). The RO running the shooter felt that FTEs do not apply, and I agreed upon reflection, as did another RO. Other ROs felt that FTEs should apply, because the competitor did not fulfill the requirements of the stage briefing, i.e. the final incompleted shot(s) weakhand.

To me, the rule book is clear than the competitor can not be penalized for failure to make the second shots beyond the applicable miss penalties, in keeping with 9.5.1, 9.5.7 and 10.2.7.

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring paper

targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best

two hits to score. Scoring metal targets must be shot with a minimum

of one round each and must fall to score.

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a

course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty

per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties

for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one

round will incur one procedural penalty per target, plus the applicable

number of misses, except where the provisions of Rules 9.2.4.4 or 9.9.2

apply.

The ROs who took the position that additional penalities would apply based their reasoning on failing to comply with the requirements of the written stage briefing (10.1.1, 10.2.2), i.e. failure to complete the final weakhand shot(s).

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply

with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The Range

Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly record the number

of penalties, and the reason why they were imposed, on the competitor’s

score sheet.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occur-

rence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance).

I'm sure if I've misconstrued the circumstances or reasoning, some of the other ROs involved in the discussion will set the record straight...it was pretty hot out there today and my memory could easily have been adversely affected.

Let the learning experience begin.

Curtis

[George Jones]

From the latest rules updates:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply

two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required

rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural).

Curtis, your opinion is correct.

[Schutzenmeister]

Futhermore ... How can one justify an FTE on a target the (presumably) has holes in it?

[BayouSlide]

Futhermore ... How can one justify an FTE on a target the (presumably) has holes in it?

Agreed. But in fairness, those with the opposing viewpoint mentioned both FTE or procedural for failure to follow stage briefing. I am probably not covering their reasoning absolutely accurately or completely.

Curtis

[lilbeauxdawg]

I was with Curtis on this stage. The reasoning behind others view FOR fte/procedurals is that inthe stage briefing it states engage t1- t6 freestyle mandatory reload and ENGAGE t1-t6 weak hand only. The shooter had his squib after the reload so he was unable to shoot any of the six targets with his weak hand. The people who think he should be penalized claim that it was because he failed to engage t1-t6 weak hand. I was arguing that he could not be penalized for targets he had already shot and unable to shoot again.

Hope that helps

lilB

[spanky]

I'd concur. No FTEs.

[spanky]

The more I think about it, when did the shooter actually stop? Had he already engaged the 6 targets one time in the second string?

I'm thinking if he engaged T1-T6 then squibbed and didn't reengage, no FTE but if he only engaged T1-T4 (for example), would he get FTEs for not engaging those last two targets?

[lilbeauxdawg]

He shot the first string completely. While shooting string two he engage t1-t6 with one round each like stage description said performs his mandatory reload shoots one shot and gun jams with a squib. Stops at that point and the arguing about penalties begins.

[spanky]

I'd argue NO FTE if that is the case.

I'm still intrigued as to how it would go if he hadn't shot all of T1-T6 on the first set.

Edited September 20, 2010 by spanky

[lilbeauxdawg]

the way i see it is that if he shot the six targets (one shot on each) during the first string freestyle then stop for the entire stage he would not have any FTE's since he did engage all targets of the stage with one bullet but he would have three mikes per target since it is scored best four on paper causing him to zero the stage just off of mike's alone the FTE's don't really matter.

but that's just me

lilB

[High Lord Gomer]

Did he stop himself or did the RO stop him?

If I have someone who tells me they think they fired a squib, I tell them to stop. I know the possibility exists for a cheater to claim a squib, get the RO top stop them, and then get a reshoot if there was not really a squib, but karma would catch up to those people if their greed doesn't first. Besides, I have never encountered anyone capable of such things in USPSA.

[lilbeauxdawg]

The RO (me) didn't realize he shot a squib until the next round wouldn't chamber since the bullet barely moved when we stopped him we put a rod through the chamber and it didn't come out on the other side so we knew he had a squib. At first I didn't notice a sound difference from his working rounds and the squib which is why I didn't initially stop him.

lilB

[joecichlid]

In this case I would say no FTE procedurals but he did pick up the Mikes for not having required number of hits on each target. The stage should be scored as shot. If it had been a fixed time no Mikes. If there had been no obstruction in the barrel shooter must reshoot. *scratchin his brain since he doesn't have a rule book handy and it is 3:11 am but trying to remember as best he can from his RO class this year* If I am totally off base and full of crap someone please delete my comment. lol

Joe W.

[High Lord Gomer]

It's only a reshoot if the RO stops the competitor *and* there was really no squib. If they stop themselves, no reshoot and scored as shot.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage.

[joecichlid]

HLG, you are quite right. I neglected to include that part. It was about four hours past my bed time. lol All kidding aside RO stops you, no squib=reshoot. RO stops you barrel is plugged=score it as is. Shooter stops themselves and yeah scored as is. I just knew I was going to forget something in that reply.

Joe W.

[aztecdriver]

Someone mentioned what would happen if the gun malfunctioned during string 1- how would it be scored?

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

If the scenario wasn't posed - just some information to keep in mind. The failure only applies to current strings - and subsequent unattempted strings within a stage can be completed, after remediation - and I believe that includes an approved replacement handgun as well. --- i've done this in the past when my rear sight slid off the gun as I was setting up for a second string.