Monday morning rules question

[Bigpops]

Just keep your favorite gunsmith on speed dial! (as I do)

For the record...this was a discussion not an actual incident. I am not guilty!!!!

[Nik Habicht]

was the intent of 10.5.1 to keep people from handling their gun outside a safe area or without a ro's supervision.

this case the shooter had no intention of handling his gun.

this is not 1st degree gun handling, but second degree handling without intent.

The rules in this case don't care about intent. Once the gun has been drawn from the holster, outside the safety area/outside RO supervision, if it doesn't fall, the shooter is disqualified.....

[GrumpyOne]

was the intent of 10.5.1 to keep people from handling their gun outside a safe area or without a ro's supervision.

this case the shooter had no intention of handling his gun.

this is not 1st degree gun handling, but second degree handling without intent.

Unfortunately, there are no exceptions listed for "intention" in the rulebook or degrees in breaking rules...rules are like glass, they can't be bent, only broken.

Curtis

Glass can be bent...If you heat it enough.

Unfortunately, the competitor must let his gun hit the ground, or face a DQ.

[Singlestack]

was the intent of 10.5.1 to keep people from handling their gun outside a safe area or without a ro's supervision.

this case the shooter had no intention of handling his gun.

this is not 1st degree gun handling, but second degree handling without intent.

Unfortunately, there are no exceptions listed for "intention" in the rulebook or degrees in breaking rules...rules are like glass, they can't be bent, only broken.

Curtis

Glass can be bent...If you heat it enough.

Unfortunately, the competitor must let his gun hit the ground, or face a DQ.

And risk his and everyone else's safety. I can get a bit testy when somebody else risks my safety.

[Skydiver]

And risk his and everyone else's safety. I can get a bit testy when somebody else risks my safety.

Huh? I don't get it. Why is any less safe to let the unloaded gun drop than try to trap the gun?

If "risk his and everyone else's safety" because we assume that the gun was loaded, then isn't there the same amount of risk due to trying to trap the gun and inadvertently getting a finger or some clothing material in there to pull the trigger?

[Singlestack]

If you drop your gun, I don't know if it is loaded or not. I am going to assume it is.

I am saying it is safer to let it fall then to try and catch it.

[GrumpyOne]

If you drop your gun, I don't know if it is loaded or not. I am going to assume it is.

I am saying it is safer to let it fall then to try and catch it.

Singlestack, I was saying the same thing, just a bit more sarcasticly....

I learned my lesson about trying to catch things I'd dropped many years ago, when I gave myself a concussion, and got 2nd degree burns in the palm of my left hand, when I dropped a hot soldering iron and tried to catch it. Almost knocked myself out on the ironwork I was next to, but caught the iron...Didn't hold on to it long though...

Edited September 13, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[colt]

so i just need to re-program my brain that when my $1K gun goes tumbling to the ground, i dont reach to save my investment, but let it hit the deck instead.

Note to self: DONT DROP GUN OUT OF HOLSTER!!

Most open guns are around $3,000 or more . I couldn't stop my self from grabbing it and bagging right after and help past the rest of the day. I think most people will grab it out of instinct.But I could be wrong though.

Just my thought's Brent

[GrumpyOne]

so i just need to re-program my brain that when my $1K gun goes tumbling to the ground, i dont reach to save my investment, but let it hit the deck instead.

Note to self: DONT DROP GUN OUT OF HOLSTER!!

Most open guns are around $3,000 or more . I couldn't stop my self from grabbing it and bagging right after and help past the rest of the day. I think most people will grab it out of instinct.But I could be wrong though.

Just my thought's Brent

Think about it guys...We USE these guns, they are not show pieces, they are work pieces. I, too, love my guns, and don't want them dinged up, but it's like any other tool...Use them enough, they will show wear, they will break, they will wear out. If you are really worried about dropping your piece the 3 feet or so to the ground, then get a strap in holster....

Edited September 14, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[George Jones]

Interesting scenario. I see a number of opinions of what "feels right", but let's take a closer look at the applicable rules and see if any opinions change.

First, the definition of Dropped Gun - does not apply since it specifies "(during the COF)".

Next, the definition of Handling - you can't "manipulate, hold, or grip" with your sleeve, so that does not apply.

The definition of Draw - Yes, the gun was removed from the holster to a point where the trigger was accessible. However, I do not see a rule under 10.5 which clearly covers a drawn handgun off the COF. Only handling applies and it was not handled. This is not unlike getting bumped by someone, or bumping a wall, and the gun falling - no one would suggest that the gun's owner should be DQd for drawing the gun.

So, where are we? It depends on the fine details. How did the shooter prevent the gun from falling? If he trapped it (without "handling" it), I suggest that no DQ applies. If he grabbed it (with his hand), then a DQ applies under 10.5.1.

I know that we instinctively grab for something we realize is falling. We usually can't help it. Unfortunately, that would mean a DQ in this case.

Lastly, in my opinion, if the shooter allowed the gun to continue falling to the ground without handling it, then there should be no DQ as long as he doesn't pick it up even though his sleeve "caused" the event.

[Bigpops]

Thanks George.

Let me pick your brain some more...PLEASE.

So, with this scenerio, lets say the person traps the gun with their forearm...no DQ? Should they continue holding/trapping the gun and call out to a RO for assistance? If they were to reach around and grab it with their other hand it would now be a DQ?

[Gary Stevens]

I agree with George on about 95 percent of this. Where I differ is I don't really care what part of the body "trapped" the gun, arm, hand, etc. Our book says you can't pick the gun up after you drop it, outside of the course of fire. The picking up requires a conscious effort, trapping a gun on your leg is more of a reflexive action.

If the individual trapped the gun, and then called for an RO to retrieve it for them, then I don't see a DQ action.

Absent direction from NROI otherwise, that is where I stand.

Kinder and gentler since 9-13-10.

Gary

[George Jones]

Thanks George.

Let me pick your brain some more...PLEASE.

So, with this scenerio, lets say the person traps the gun with their forearm...no DQ? Should they continue holding/trapping the gun and call out to a RO for assistance? If they were to reach around and grab it with their other hand it would now be a DQ?

Yes. Call for assisatnce so that you are not violating 10.5.1. That is my opinion.

As to Gary's post, I agree with 95% of his.

I disagree with him that using the hand outside the course of fire would be OK. That is because the shooter would be in violation of Rule 10.5.1 and the definition (new) of handling. If the shooter traps the gun, no problem. But if he then controls it with a hand, it is in my opinion a DQ.

[Gary Stevens]

Thanks George.

Let me pick your brain some more...PLEASE.

So, with this scenerio, lets say the person traps the gun with their forearm...no DQ? Should they continue holding/trapping the gun and call out to a RO for assistance? If they were to reach around and grab it with their other hand it would now be a DQ?

Yes. Call for assisatnce so that you are not violating 10.5.1. That is my opinion.

As to Gary's post, I agree with 95% of his.

I disagree with him that using the hand outside the course of fire would be OK. That is because the shooter would be in violation of Rule 10.5.1 and the definition (new) of handling. If the shooter traps the gun, no problem. But if he then controls it with a hand, it is in my opinion a DQ.

George, George, George

You are so close to enlightenment (95%). Let go of your fears. Walk toward the light.

[George Jones]

George, George, George

You are so close to enlightenment (95%). Let go of your fears. Walk toward the light.

Fear, schmear!

Quote the rule which allows a shooter to handle a gun outside the course of fire (and not at the safety table).

As to that light..... Being blinded by it doesn't sound like fun. I'll skip the conscious efforts and and reflexive actions stuff. I'll stick with what the rules say (it's all about the hand).

[Singlestack]

I'm trying to figure out what you two are babbling about. I'm only 95% joking.

Lets see if I got this right.

Gary says its ok to trap a gun that has fallen out of the holster as long as the shooter calls for a RO to retrive it from it's trapped position. As long as no hands are involved its all good.

George says if it falls out of the holster and the shooter traps it against the body with anything, he's done. 10.5.1

??

(I'm with George. I think. About 95% sure )

[Gary Stevens]

I'm trying to figure out what you two are babbling about. I'm only 95% joking.

Lets see if I got this right.

Gary says its ok to trap a gun that has fallen out of the holster as long as the shooter calls for a RO to retrive it from it's trapped position. As long as no hands are involved its all good.

George says if it falls out of the holster and the shooter traps it against the body with anything, he's done. 10.5.1

??

(I'm with George. I think. About 95% sure )

Nope. George says if you trap it, call the RO for help, and don't use your hand, you are OK. If you use your hand, you are DQ'd.

Gary says if you trap it, call for the RO for help, no DQ. I don't care what you use to trap the gun.

[Singlestack]

I'm trying to figure out what you two are babbling about. I'm only 95% joking.

Lets see if I got this right.

Gary says its ok to trap a gun that has fallen out of the holster as long as the shooter calls for a RO to retrive it from it's trapped position. As long as no hands are involved its all good.

George says if it falls out of the holster and the shooter traps it against the body with anything, he's done. 10.5.1

??

(I'm with George. I think. About 95% sure )

Nope. George says if you trap it, call the RO for help, and don't use your hand, you are OK. If you use your hand, you are DQ'd.

Gary says if you trap it, call for the RO for help, no DQ. I don't care what you use to trap the gun.

Well I'm glad I asked.

I am gonna have to go read a bit now because, right now, I disagree with both of you. About 95%

[Skydiver]

How about trapping the gun, and then waddling your way over to the safety table and then grabbing it with your hand?

[George Jones]

How about trapping the gun, and then waddling your way over to the safety table and then grabbing it with your hand?

Waddling? I couldn't find it in the glossary.

[George Jones]

Nope. George says if you trap it, call the RO for help, and don't use your hand, you are OK. If you use your hand, you are DQ'd.

Gary says if you trap it, call for the RO for help, no DQ. I don't care what you use to trap the gun.

I agree 100% with what you just said.

[Bigpops]

Well then......I am 95% confused!

[mhs]

I agree with George on about 95 percent of this. Where I differ is I don't really care what part of the body "trapped" the gun, arm, hand, etc. Our book says you can't pick the gun up after you drop it, outside of the course of fire. The picking up requires a conscious effort, trapping a gun on your leg is more of a reflexive action.

If the individual trapped the gun, and then called for an RO to retrieve it for them, then I don't see a DQ action.

Absent direction from NROI otherwise, that is where I stand.

Kinder and gentler since 9-13-10.

Gary

I'm trying to figure out what you two are babbling about. I'm only 95% joking.

Lets see if I got this right.

Gary says its ok to trap a gun that has fallen out of the holster as long as the shooter calls for a RO to retrive it from it's trapped position. As long as no hands are involved its all good.

George says if it falls out of the holster and the shooter traps it against the body with anything, he's done. 10.5.1

??

(I'm with George. I think. About 95% sure )

Nope. George says if you trap it, call the RO for help, and don't use your hand, you are OK. If you use your hand, you are DQ'd.

Gary says if you trap it, call for the RO for help, no DQ. I don't care what you use to trap the gun.

So if I'm shooting in a COF, and a wasp lands on my left arm, and I reflexively brush it off with my right arm, breaking the 180, would you say it's OK since I didn't consciously do it?

If you start allowing people to get away with violating safety rules based on their intent, things are going to get really interesting.

[Gary Stevens]

I agree with George on about 95 percent of this. Where I differ is I don't really care what part of the body "trapped" the gun, arm, hand, etc. Our book says you can't pick the gun up after you drop it, outside of the course of fire. The picking up requires a conscious effort, trapping a gun on your leg is more of a reflexive action.

If the individual trapped the gun, and then called for an RO to retrieve it for them, then I don't see a DQ action.

Absent direction from NROI otherwise, that is where I stand.

Kinder and gentler since 9-13-10.

Gary

I'm trying to figure out what you two are babbling about. I'm only 95% joking.

Lets see if I got this right.

Gary says its ok to trap a gun that has fallen out of the holster as long as the shooter calls for a RO to retrive it from it's trapped position. As long as no hands are involved its all good.

George says if it falls out of the holster and the shooter traps it against the body with anything, he's done. 10.5.1

??

(I'm with George. I think. About 95% sure )

Nope. George says if you trap it, call the RO for help, and don't use your hand, you are OK. If you use your hand, you are DQ'd.

Gary says if you trap it, call for the RO for help, no DQ. I don't care what you use to trap the gun.

So if I'm shooting in a COF, and a wasp lands on my left arm, and I reflexively brush it off with my right arm, breaking the 180, would you say it's OK since I didn't consciously do it?

If you start allowing people to get away with violating safety rules based on their intent, things are going to get really interesting.

If you are within the COF there is a different standard.

[mhs]

I agree with George on about 95 percent of this. Where I differ is I don't really care what part of the body "trapped" the gun, arm, hand, etc. Our book says you can't pick the gun up after you drop it, outside of the course of fire. The picking up requires a conscious effort, trapping a gun on your leg is more of a reflexive action.

If the individual trapped the gun, and then called for an RO to retrieve it for them, then I don't see a DQ action.

Absent direction from NROI otherwise, that is where I stand.

Kinder and gentler since 9-13-10.

Gary

I'm trying to figure out what you two are babbling about. I'm only 95% joking.

Lets see if I got this right.

Gary says its ok to trap a gun that has fallen out of the holster as long as the shooter calls for a RO to retrive it from it's trapped position. As long as no hands are involved its all good.

George says if it falls out of the holster and the shooter traps it against the body with anything, he's done. 10.5.1

??

(I'm with George. I think. About 95% sure )

Nope. George says if you trap it, call the RO for help, and don't use your hand, you are OK. If you use your hand, you are DQ'd.

Gary says if you trap it, call for the RO for help, no DQ. I don't care what you use to trap the gun.

So if I'm shooting in a COF, and a wasp lands on my left arm, and I reflexively brush it off with my right arm, breaking the 180, would you say it's OK since I didn't consciously do it?

If you start allowing people to get away with violating safety rules based on their intent, things are going to get really interesting.

If you are within the COF there is a different standard.

Is there a current rule or interpretation to support that?