Why am I not as good with my G17 as I am with my Trojan?

[slippp]

A little background on me....I'm relatively new to shooting. I have been shooting for maybe 10 months, but just recently became a gun owner My first club match is this sunday!

So last time I went to the range to practice shooting, I brought both my guns. I have a G17 Gen4 and an STI Trojan.

I am actually pretty decent at target practice with my Trojan, but am atrocious with my G17. I have shot the G19 before and I am better with that.

The Trojan has a lighter trigger (3lb) and the Glock is maybe like 5-6lbs? I wasn't too fond of the pull, but I was trying to practice with it anyway. My grouping (if you could even call it that) was terrible. My main characteristic with the G17 was left side-oriented shots (I'm right handed) so I attributed that to anticipating the recoil...but even when I pulled EXTRA slow I was bad too. I think I actually got worse as I kept shooting it (lol).

I ordered a lighter trigger kit, and a Jager 13# recoil spring. I plan on bringing the G17 down to at least 3-4 lbs because I like lighter triggers. Obviously I'm doing something else wrong with the G17 (grip maybe?) but I honestly don't know.

Aside from that, what else would I be doing wrong with the G17 that I'm not doing with the STI? Is it just a mental thing? I will be going to the range tomorrow just for practice again, so I'd like some tips before then I will also get some pictures and post them so you can see the difference between my STI and my G17 groupings.

Only reason why I want to become better at shooting the G17 is because it's my home defense weapon, so obviously I don't want to miss my target.

Thanks for the help!

[Jadeslade]

Go on YouTube and find Dave Sevigny. Subscribe to his videos and you will have many great lessons on Glock shooting. The trigger on a Glock must be prepped-pulled to just before the sear releases-in a conscious way. Dry fire at home a lot. The grip is crucial-get someone you know who shoots IPSC to check your grip-hands tight, palms on the gun, thumbs forward, left hand rotated slightly forward.arms rotated slightly in-takes a while. Stick with it. Completely different mechanism than a 1911 type.

[Skydiver]

If you've been watching Top Shot, It's that grip angle... oh wait, it's not a Beretta... :-)

Seriously, though, sometimes another pair of eyes may help. Ask one of the other shooters to watch you shoot slow fire sometime. They may catch something that you are doing unconsciously.

Typically, the same people who take time to setup the matches that you go to, are also the same people who have the temperament and experience to help new shooters. Approach them. It won't hurt to ask. They may even invite you to their practice sessions, if they have any.

If you can't get a shooting buddy to watch you, but you have a video camera (or decent video recording on your cellphone), set it up to record yourself shooting.

[slippp]

Go on YouTube and find Dave Sevigny. Subscribe to his videos and you will have many great lessons on Glock shooting. The trigger on a Glock must be prepped-pulled to just before the sear releases-in a conscious way. Dry fire at home a lot. The grip is crucial-get someone you know who shoots IPSC to check your grip-hands tight, palms on the gun, thumbs forward, left hand rotated slightly forward.arms rotated slightly in-takes a while. Stick with it. Completely different mechanism than a 1911 type.

Thank you. I already watch all of Dave Sevigny's videos. He's so sick. lol. I watch his video of him showing his grip at a gun show and I've stuck with that ever since. Thanks for the good advice!

If you've been watching Top Shot, It's that grip angle... oh wait, it's not a Beretta... :-)

Seriously, though, sometimes another pair of eyes may help. Ask one of the other shooters to watch you shoot slow fire sometime. They may catch something that you are doing unconsciously.

Typically, the same people who take time to setup the matches that you go to, are also the same people who have the temperament and experience to help new shooters. Approach them. It won't hurt to ask. They may even invite you to their practice sessions, if they have any.

If you can't get a shooting buddy to watch you, but you have a video camera (or decent video recording on your cellphone), set it up to record yourself shooting.

Wait, I didn't catch the Top Shot joke? Do explain?

Yeah, all my friends that I go shooting with just go to shoot for fun. They're not really serious about it. I have another friend that I will be going to club matches with but I doubt he goes to the range much.

I'll post up some pics after tomorrow's practice session. Thank you for the help! Keep it coming

[Singlestack]

It is not easy to go back and forth between a single action trigger and a Glock trigger. I can shoot both, but I have to shoot one or the other. When I switch from a single action to a Glock I have to dry fire the heck out of the Glock for a couple of weeks and leave my single actions alone. Your left grouping is typical of a rooky Glock shooter. At this point, since you are a fairly new shooter, I would recomend you pick one and practice.

[ParaGunner]

Have you sighted in the G17? All the Glocks I have purchased have shot to the left and I had to drift the rear sight to the right to get it to shoot point of aim.

[G-ManBart]

I get to help folks with this at work on a regular basis (the Glock issue). Normally, what's happening is that the shooter starts out by pressing the trigger enough to take up the slack (to where the resistance increases significantly) and then pausing....movement stops. They then accelerate the press, from a dead stop, to break the shot. You can get away with that on close targets, or if your technique is absolutely perfect. If it's not perfect, the shots move to the left (for a righty). The trick is to take up the slack, do NOT stop the press, just slow the rate of the press...sort of like easing off the gas in your car. The harder the shot, the more you ease off the gas. To break the pause habit, I have people start out taking shots where the trigger finger never slows at all...just a constant press straight through from start to finish. Next I have them work on not stopping, but slowing the movement once they feel the resistance. I'll often have them put their finger on the trigger, then I put my finger over theirs and supply the pressure so they get a feel for how it should be done. Take up the slack, don't stop, let the extra resistance slow the rate of the press and fight the urge to make the gun go off "NOW". When you try to make it go off "now" it's called snatching the shot, and that little bit of acceleration is what moves the shots left. R,

[bbbean]

I am actually pretty decent at target practice with my Trojan, but am atrocious with my G17.

While there are shooters who can go back and forth between dissimilar guns without sacrificing accuracy or speed, it's been my experience that most shooters - especially beginning shooters - will do much better to pick a gun and stick with it. When you consider the Glock and the 1911 have different grip angles, controls, and dramatically different triggers, shooting both is like trying to learn French and Spanish at the same time.

FWIW, this very problem is why I gave my son my Glock and opted tp stick to 1911/2011 pattern pistols. When I did decide I wanted to try production, I opted for an M&P, which at least has the same grip angle as the 1911, so my sights are where I expect them to be.

Since you're more accurate with the 1911, why not mothball the Glock for a few months? Focus on the 1911, do a lot of dry fire and see where your technique is in 4 or 5 months. My bet is that you'll be much further along focusing on one gun than you will if you're constantly having to adjust for different triggers and grip angles.

[Graham Smith]

I am not an expert marksman - by any stretch of the imagination. But I do have the same problem from time to time and these are things I have to watch.

Check the position of your finger on the trigger - only the pad of the finger should be touching it - and make sure you are pulling the trigger straight back.

If you have a death grip with your right hand, relax it a bit and increase the grip pressure with your left hand.

[twodownzero]

It's the trigger pull, both length and weight. It's just harder to shoot a Glock accurately without practice.

[Flexmoney]

Have you sighted in the G17? All the Glocks I have purchased have shot to the left and I had to drift the rear sight to the right to get it to shoot point of aim.

Unless you are left-handed, then they all shoot to the right.

[Singlestack]

Have you sighted in the G17? All the Glocks I have purchased have shot to the left and I had to drift the rear sight to the right to get it to shoot point of aim.

Unless you are left-handed, then they all shoot to the right.

[bbbean]

Unless you are left-handed, then they all shoot to the right.

Ouch! That burns!

[benos]

It is not easy to go back and forth between a single action trigger and a Glock trigger. I can shoot both, but I have to shoot one or the other. When I switch from a single action to a Glock I have to dry fire the heck out of the Glock for a couple of weeks and leave my single actions alone. Your left grouping is typical of a rooky Glock shooter. At this point, since you are a fairly new shooter, I would recomend you pick one and practice.

It's the trigger pull, both length and weight. It's just harder to shoot a Glock accurately without practice.

Those pretty much sum it up. Glocks are much more sensitive to imperfect trigger control. For good trigger control with Glocks, you have to learn to "roll it through," much like a good DA revolver trigger pull.

be

[slippp]

It is not easy to go back and forth between a single action trigger and a Glock trigger. I can shoot both, but I have to shoot one or the other. When I switch from a single action to a Glock I have to dry fire the heck out of the Glock for a couple of weeks and leave my single actions alone.

Hmm... I always thought the dynamics were the same, just that the gun changed. Interesting.

Thanks.

Have you sighted in the G17? All the Glocks I have purchased have shot to the left and I had to drift the rear sight to the right to get it to shoot point of aim.

Well I have the fixed rear sights....can I hit it with something to move it over?

The trick is to take up the slack, do NOT stop the press, just slow the rate of the press...sort of like easing off the gas in your car. The harder the shot, the more you ease off the gas. To break the pause habit, I have people start out taking shots where the trigger finger never slows at all...just a constant press straight through from start to finish. Next I have them work on not stopping, but slowing the movement once they feel the resistance. I'll often have them put their finger on the trigger, then I put my finger over theirs and supply the pressure so they get a feel for how it should be done. Take up the slack, don't stop, let the extra resistance slow the rate of the press and fight the urge to make the gun go off "NOW".

Well, I don't accelerate the press, but I do hold the trigger at the engagement point and then slowly pull it....I will try the nonstop pulling today.

Thanks for the insight!

I am actually pretty decent at target practice with my Trojan, but am atrocious with my G17.

While there are shooters who can go back and forth between dissimilar guns without sacrificing accuracy or speed, it's been my experience that most shooters - especially beginning shooters - will do much better to pick a gun and stick with it. When you consider the Glock and the 1911 have different grip angles, controls, and dramatically different triggers, shooting both is like trying to learn French and Spanish at the same time.

Very good concept! Thanks!

I am not an expert marksman - by any stretch of the imagination. But I do have the same problem from time to time and these are things I have to watch.

Check the position of your finger on the trigger - only the pad of the finger should be touching it - and make sure you are pulling the trigger straight back.

If you have a death grip with your right hand, relax it a bit and increase the grip pressure with your left hand.

Thank you. I will try this today. I think I actually put my joint on the trigger and pull it, not the pad. Should I change it up?

It's the trigger pull, both length and weight. It's just harder to shoot a Glock accurately without practice.

Yeah, I thought it was a mental thing, but apparently not so much so I ordered a drop in trigger set (not the fulcrum) made by glockworx.

It is not easy to go back and forth between a single action trigger and a Glock trigger. I can shoot both, but I have to shoot one or the other. When I switch from a single action to a Glock I have to dry fire the heck out of the Glock for a couple of weeks and leave my single actions alone. Your left grouping is typical of a rooky Glock shooter. At this point, since you are a fairly new shooter, I would recomend you pick one and practice.

Thanks! I think I'm going to stick to the 1911 because I just like it better

Thanks everyone for your help! This is good information!

[bbbean]

Thanks! I think I'm going to stick to the 1911 because I just like it better

Thanks everyone for your help! This is good information!

There you go! You found the best way to pick a gun!

[G-ManBart]

The trick is to take up the slack, do NOT stop the press, just slow the rate of the press...sort of like easing off the gas in your car. The harder the shot, the more you ease off the gas. To break the pause habit, I have people start out taking shots where the trigger finger never slows at all...just a constant press straight through from start to finish. Next I have them work on not stopping, but slowing the movement once they feel the resistance. I'll often have them put their finger on the trigger, then I put my finger over theirs and supply the pressure so they get a feel for how it should be done. Take up the slack, don't stop, let the extra resistance slow the rate of the press and fight the urge to make the gun go off "NOW".

Well, I don't accelerate the press, but I do hold the trigger at the engagement point and then slowly pull it....I will try the nonstop pulling today.

Thanks for the insight!

Actually, if you hold the trigger at the engagement point, then press, you have to accelerate it...it's not moving, so there has to be some acceleration. Still, I know what you're trying to say. The problem with this technique is that most folks can get to shooting reasonably well with it until they try to shoot what we could call normal splits (say half a second or faster). At that point, their accuracy totally goes away, and they don't know why. Trying to do the hold then press is just very hard to do perfectly when you're going fast. If you just barely keep it moving after the engagement point, it makes all the difference in the world.

Think about when you drive up to a red light in your car, hit the brakes, and just feel the wheels stop when the light goes green....so you hit the gas; it's always going to be herky jerky when you start moving like that. If you're moving even a couple of miles an hour when you hit the gas you smoothly pull away from the light. Pressing the trigger isn't that much different. R,

Edited August 27, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Cold Absolute Zero]

As far as shooting a glock goes, there have been a lot of great input and tips on how to do this better. I find that a solid grip and smooth trigger control is very important when shooting a DA type trigger, they are not as forgiving as 1911 triggers. If it does turn out that your rear sight needs drifting, I use the MGW sight pusher, you can find it here: http://www.topglock.com/item/42973_MGW_Tools_MGW_SIGHT_INSTALLATION_TO.aspx

Its very easy to use and much better than tapping the rear sight IMO, especially if you have tritium in the rear.

I think that there is a lot of merit in picking one platform and sticking with it. I CCW a glock, so I compete with a glock. I find it very difficult to transition seamlessly from SFA to SAOs. I completely agree with you, it is really important that you are comfortable and accurate with whatever you choose to defend your home with. So if you are comfortable and capable with your 1911, I would also choose a reliable 1911 as a HD gun.

With that in mind, I don't know what kind of work if any you've had done to your 1911 but I would caution against using any trigger lighter than 4-5 lbs for HD. I do have a rational behind my reasoning, but I do not want to derail the thread with my opinions. I would consider selling / trading the Glock towards a 1911 w/ rail (for white light) and night sights. That way you can have a tuned match gun and a suitable HD gun, both with the same grip angle, manual of arms and trigger action.

CAZ

Edited September 16, 2010 by Cold Absolute Zero

[2alpha]

I hate to disagree with Brian and maybe I'm not really. But IMHO and experience, people who have a refined trigger pull discipline, like what you learn shooting a 1911 with a good trigger, tend to have trouble with the Glock.

At least with the average stock Glock trigger trying to shoot at speed. Someone new that has limited trigger control can just mash the Glock all the way thru like a rusted staple gun and do ok. The extra pull weight actually requires you to have a better grip which helps out overall.

This is also my explanation why some people shoot better double action with a revolver than they do single action, it's hard to flinch or try to make the gun go off NOW with a double action or something like a Glock. For new shooters I have dealt with that is a big hurdle, getting them not to just mash the trigger as the sights pass anywhere close to the target.