MichiganShootist Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 Earlier this year I shot at at a "really" high profile 1911 oriented USPSA pistol match. Hint Hint The 3 or 4 international shooters on my squad were relatively well known high level IPSC shooters and basically refused to paint steel,paste targets, or in any way "participate" with the squad. I handed a roll of pasters to one of the shooters after 6 stages and pointed to the targets and--- he dropped it on the ground. This behavior was brought to their attention by ROs and by members of the squad a number of times... but they were just there as shooters..and basically refused to "participate" with the re-setting of stages and acted like the rest of the squad was their staff for the entire match... and it made the whole match painfully slow... and hard work for those of us who carried their weight. So..... I am now registered for the 2010 IDPA Nat's and see that 9 members of my squad are international shooters. Is there something I need to know about how shooters around the globe view "squad participation" differently than we do in the U. S. A.????????????? Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 Well I speak for me, back in the day in Brazil they would also demand that you pick your brass. Some shooters would reset the stage and others would pick-up brass. Not matter where you from, if you don't work and help you're a piece of you know what. Man that gets my hate meter up really quick, can you tell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 A lot of responses come to mind. None suitable for print here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Action Pistolero Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 I run into this quite a bit with American shooters although I must say that they are not that bad. Usually you can shame them into it. I've shot with Kiwis, Aussies, Germans and Canandians. You couldn't find a better bunch. Most of the time they run circles around us. I have a good guess as to the nationality you are speaking about but I'm not going to mention it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 Personally, I'd request the RO inform them that they either help out, or be DQ'd, as engaging in some form of unsportsmanlike conduct - not just for Euros, but for any physically able person who refused to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poison Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 (edited) Personally, I'd request the RO inform them that they either help out, or be DQ'd, as engaging in some form of unsportsmanlike conduct - not just for Euros, but for any physically able person who refused to help. Edited July 26, 2010 by Poison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poison Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 You have to take into consideration the high cost of the international shooter. Most of them are paying top dollars to the airlines to get to the competition. Then the cost of the hotel. Also they are paying the inscription fee. I have shot in many parts of the world and they always pay a few kids or their military to do the pasting and the poppers. Who will cover their cost if during a resetting of a popper or so they get hurt and cannot shoot anymore?? I think the organizers are making enough to pay a couple of High school kids to do the work. The USPSA (in my opinion)allowed this helping trend basically to give the shooters an edge. I think they thought it would be a win win situation,which turned into a win situation for the organizers. I know for a fact that shooting in another country is extremely expensive and I will not give out all that money just to go there and work. I will not do that when I am in Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Ecuador or anywhere in south America the Caribbean or Europe or any where else so I do not expect them to do it either when they are here. I am not trying to step on anyone's toe but I think this might help understanding the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted July 26, 2010 Share Posted July 26, 2010 (edited) where's a popcorn icon when we need one! Taping a few targets and resetting some steel can hardly be called work and if you perceive it as too much work feel free to hire your own "caddy" at your expense and laze away. If picking up a popper causes you an injury that ruins your match then I feel confident your physical condition is so horrible you need to find some other leisure activity. Regardless how one view's work, if the match did not hire a cadre of stage personnel to reset targets and the rest of your squadmates are doing their share, GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND RESET THE STAGE! Edited July 26, 2010 by smokshwn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martyg00 Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 (edited) You have to take into consideration the high cost of the international shooter. Most of them are paying top dollars to the airlines to get to the competition. Then the cost of the hotel. Also they are paying the inscription fee. I have shot in many parts of the world and they always pay a few kids or their military to do the pasting and the poppers. Who will cover their cost if during a resetting of a popper or so they get hurt and cannot shoot anymore?? I think the organizers are making enough to pay a couple of High school kids to do the work. The USPSA (in my opinion)allowed this helping trend basically to give the shooters an edge. I think they thought it would be a win win situation,which turned into a win situation for the organizers. I know for a fact that shooting in another country is extremely expensive and I will not give out all that money just to go there and work. I will not do that when I am in Colombia, Venezuela, Brazil, Ecuador or anywhere in south America the Caribbean or Europe or any where else so I do not expect them to do it either when they are here. I am not trying to step on anyone's toe but I think this might help understanding the situation. I have no clue what is "expected" in any other Country but as my Father used to say "when in Rome, you do as the Romans do", which means here in the US, you are expected to help. I am also confused about the statement "allowed this helping trend basically to give the shooters an edge", how can taping targets and setting steel in the hot sun give a shooter an edge? The edge would go to the shooter that is NOT helping! Poison, Just to let you know where I'm coming from, I happen to be a 20+year member of the range where this match took place and consider it my home range. I also have had 107 chemotherapy treatments so far, fighting an incurable cancer. I don't shoot many major matches anymore because it is very difficult for me to shoot 10-12 stages in one day, due to fatigue that is directly related to the chemo.However, I will be shooting my first USPSA Nationals in October and will assist my squad any way I can.... Thank God I wasn't on that squad! Respectfully, Marty A-7424 USPSA Member Open Division since 1987 Edited July 27, 2010 by martyg00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 If picking up a popper causes you an injury that ruins your match then I feel confident your physical condition is so horrible you need to find some other leisure activity. I've seen more than one shooter suffer a broken ankle or worse from a set popper falling on them as they leave it. All I know is the matches that I shoot that has the staff take care of those things (big shout out to Linda Chico ) run a hell of a lot more smoothly than when it falls upon the shooters to do it. I understand it from both perspectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyro Shooter Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Travis had this in every stage description at this years Iron Man 3 gun match, it was read prior to every squad walkthrough on every stage . . . & was made prior to the pledge of allegiance at the first shooters meeting. Draconian? Perhaps, but necessary because there is always one or two out there. Your help setting steel/clays and taping targets is greatly appreciated. Failure to do your fair share COULD result in a match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. Please help out so we never have to mention this again!! Thank you and have a great stage!!! I have also seen at local matches where it has been mentioned that "You don't tape & reset!!!. . .You don't get scored!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 People that think they are above picking and pasting really chap my ass. We compete in an all volunteer sport and that means everyone volunteers to keep the match running. I've pasted targets and reset steel with Bob Vogel many times. If he will "take the risk", I think that anyone can do it. BTW, he runs a tape gun just as fast as he runs a Glock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 We had a two gun match yesterday with a single run averaging 3+ minutes of constant get it... It was 100 degrees with no wind and no shade. As the day progressed the lazy human looking creatures who refused to do their share of the reset and tape had a huge advantage over those who did their part. If the reset and etc is done as part of the matches responsibility thats great, but........ Be "it" foreign or domestic, a lazy bastard is a lazy bastard and I have nothing but contempt for those (who are capable of helping) who shirk. My opinion - yours may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadHunter Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 I was a Chief Safety Officer at the IDPA Nationals years ago when we had a squad of mostly Latin American Nationals come through. The nature of the setup made it easier for the Safety Officers to paste some of the targets. When I started to paste one, a straphanger ran up and told me "it's my job" and proceeded to paste the targets on the stage. Turns out the Latins had brought their own paste and police crew along with them. If you don't want to paste and police, that's the way to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSEMARTIN Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 I remember both of them well. They were lazy, and they had a really bad attitude. They also refused to be the first shooter on a stage. When the shooting order was announced, and one of them was to be first up, he somehow miraculously ended up down on the list. The other thing that bothers me is the fact that they are both sponsored by a well-known gunsmith on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 If a Range Officer calls for help with resetting the stage, is that a 'reasonable direction' from the RO ? If so, would 10.6.1 apply ? It would seem a tad harsh but as has been pointed out above, a shooter that does not work has an advantage over those that do. 10.6.1Match Disqualification – Unsportsmanlike ConductCompetitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsports- manlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Gundry Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 If picking up a popper causes you an injury that ruins your match then I feel confident your physical condition is so horrible you need to find some other leisure activity. I've seen more than one shooter suffer a broken ankle or worse from a set popper falling on them as they leave it. I like to think of that as 'sweeping' yourself with a popper. If you step in the danger zone, be prepared to either catch it or get out the way. Or, just don't put yourself in that position. Be "it" foreign or domestic, a lazy bastard is a lazy bastard and I have nothing but contempt for those (who are capable of helping) who shirk. My opinion - yours may vary. It doesn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 You have to take into consideration the high cost of the international shooter. What does this have to do with anything? Shooting matches is expensive for domestic shooters, too. I have shot in many parts of the world and they always pay a few kids or their military to do the pasting and the poppers. That's great if you happen to be shooting one of those matches, but at the match in question, there are no volunteers or employees charged with pasting and resetting. The established custom is for shooters to tape and reset, ROs make it clear shooters are expected to tape and reset, and the MD reminds includes this in the shooter's meeting. Stage after stage, squad after squad, whole squads move forward after each shooter to tape and reset. How they do it somewhere else shouldn't matter. Who will cover their cost if during a resetting of a popper or so they get hurt and cannot shoot anymore?? I guess the same people who'd cover the cost if you fell during a stage or twisted your ankle getting out of your car. You've come to participate in a sport that involves running with guns - is hurting yourself while pasting targets really a major concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 You handed the guy some pasters and he dropped them on the ground in front of you? That dude has some stones. Must be a Sweddish shooter? Remember that guy on ESPN World's Strongest Man Copetition, I think his name was Magnus VerMagnuson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDM Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 The squad shouldn't have pasted targets when they were on deck. Make them reset the whole thing themselves if they want to shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted July 27, 2010 Share Posted July 27, 2010 Hate threads still need to play by the Hate forum rules, even if someone accidentally posts them in the wrong forum..... Closed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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