IPSC GUY Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Can someone clear this up for me. Does the use of a magazine fed shotgun put you in open class or can you shoot in the new tactical class or even Standard? Can someone in the know who can quote a REAL rule not "well in IPSC that puts you in open..." post it here? IPSC_GUY sends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Detachable box magazines are considered* speed loading devices and put you in Open. * Not specifically spelled out as such in the rulebook, so this could be the match director's call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Thanks for clarifying, Erik. This is IPSC, not IDPA...we don't make rules up on the spot at the match, we use the rule book. What the nice gentleman is asking is quite simple...what rule forces a detachable magazine shotgun into Open? The answer thus far: there isn't such a rule. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 (edited) Here's all the rulebook has to say (note last line): Shotgun Standard Division Minimum bullet caliber 20 gauge Maximum shotgun weight NO Minimum trigger pull NO Maximum shotgun length NO Capacity restrictions 9 rounds loaded maximum Compensators NO Ports NO Optics NO Modifications allowed YES Production guns only* YES Bipods NO Speed Loaders NO What's a Speed Loader? Until USPSA offers up a clarification of the rulebook, it's up to the M.D. or Range Master to interpret. Maybe it's not a what, it's a who. Taran, Kurt, Kyle, etc. are prohibited speed loaders who must shoot Open. * Here are the Production criteria... Shotgun Production Gun Criteria a) Any complete shotgun that has been produced by a factory in units of at least 500 in any 12 month period. Prototypes are specifically not allowed c) External modifications that are allowed: • Replacement barrel • Replacement of sights • Replacement of safety catches. Ambidextrous safety catches are allowed • Enlargement of ejection ports • Enlargement of loading ports • Replacement of fore-ends and stock, pistol-grip style stocks are allowed • Checkering of fore-ends and stocks • Cosmetic enhancements that do not give a competitive advantage such as custom grips, plating, etc. d) Internal modifications to improve accuracy, reliability, and function are allowed, e.g. replacement of trigger mechanisms. Edited January 27, 2004 by Erik Warren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Hi guys, An interesting discussion. Although I'm not involved with USPSA rulings, my random thoughts are that I would certainly challenge how a box magazine, detachable or otherwise, can be classified as a "speed loader" if the box magazine was a standard component of the shotgun and it's required to hold and load rounds, unless such items are specifically disallowed. If a shotgun is originally fitted with a box magazine, it's exactly the same as a Glock 17 with a magzine or a revolver with a cylinder - it's the normal way to feed ammunition. I suggest one of you contact John Amidon for a ruling - ooops, sorry Flex, wherever you are - I meant to say "for an opinion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Excellent argument, Eric & Vince; personally I think Vince takes the point on this one since the mag is part of the unmodified OEM design. It is required for functioning of the gun. HOWEVER, if we are talking USPSA, we need to consider the facts in USPSA's jurisdiction: the US. There WAS a viable mag fed shotgun (the USAS-12) which was re-classified by ATF as a class III destructive device and banned from further production. Magazines were banned from civilian manufacture shortly thereafter. I know of exactly one such gun in use in USPSA with none on the way (realistically). What does that leave as far as box fed semi's?? The Saiga 12 and 20 which are Kalashnikov (AK-47) derived actions. I took the plunge & bought a Saiga 20 and it is the only Kalashnikov actioned gun that has ever jammed on me. Moreover, the AWB limits mags to 5 for shotguns (not 10). There are a very very few 8 round prebans for the Saiga 12 out there; I have NEVER heard of a preban 20 gauge mag. Swapping mags every 5 rounds has not proven to be the winning combination. Now, is it theoretically possible to hunt down those few 8 rounders out there & shoot the saiga 12 in Limited?? Possible but extremely unlikely. If the AWB expires however, I know I can swap 8 round mags a lot faster than my competitor can stuff 8 rounds in a tube fed gun - even with the ungainly mag retainer on the AK system. Until we have an anwer on the AWB, the Saiga is not a viable option in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC GUY Posted January 28, 2004 Author Share Posted January 28, 2004 The AWB does NOT say no 10 round magazines. It says "a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds and the ability to accept a detachable box magazine." No where in it does it limit the capacity of the box magazine. I have read it and reread it. EAA simply as a company policy will not sell the 8 and 10 round magazines to the public. So 8 and 10 rounders are not illegal to own just super hard to find. Now this presents a question. Can LEO use department 8 or 10 round magazines to compete with? IPSC GUY sends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Btw, while not Amidon-level precedent, the new USPSA "Annual" Front Sight says something pretty close to "Open shotguns may use speed-loading devices such as box magazines" in their "what is 3-gun" article, so you know how they feel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 IPSC_Guy, If it is training then yes. USPSA is training for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Same here...both my M4 and my USAS are on "LEO" letterhead A magazine is a speedloader? Ummm... A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC GUY Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 So it is cool to compete with department weapons then. Good. Wakal does anyone ever give you grief about using the USAS 12? IPSC_GUY sends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Eric Warren: I like to feel that I fall under the "external modification" area of standard, I will let Taran and Kyle fend for themselves. KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 As long as you load shells into the same magazine that you started out the stage with I think you should be in limited. Otherwise, I'll get to work on builing a removable tube fed magazine. Call a spade a spade right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Actually, this question has been asked in the past at at least 2 3-Gun Nationals. At both of those matches, a magazine fed shotgun fell into Limited Division, as long as it met the other criteria for the division. Nobody used one, BTW. At present, there is no rule that would prohibit a box-magazine fed shotgun in Limited Division, IMO, as long as it meets the Division criteria. A speed loading device is a tube holding shotgun shells with which you can (theoretically) quickly replenish the supply in the tubular magazine on a standard shotgun. These are not allowed in Limited Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 IPSC GUY: No, not in USPSA. I do have a ruling at the local Sporting Clays range, though. Fred and I showed up with our shotguns cased and paid to compete in the "flurry" event (30 birds from the trap, high, and low houses in 60 seconds). We asked...oh, we asked SEVERAL times...just how many rounds we could put in our shotguns. The answer was that we could start with no more than two, but could load as many as we wanted after that. Fred put two in his trick Browning Gold and then lined up speedloaders...at the 'get ready', he already had the shotgun inverted and the speedloader on the hooks. I started with my bolt locked back on an empty chamber and the 20-round drum lined up in the mag well. On the start whistle, Fred used his speedloaders to shuck eight more rounds into his magazine tube and I locked the 20-round drum magazine in place and cycled the bolt. It got REALLY ugly from there. After we were done...and don't get the wrong idea here, it was total yutzes on parade...we broke each other's birds, shot the same birds, ran 5 rounds on one bird...I had to reload to the 10-round stick mags and Fred (who had help...Liota was standing behind him yelling "load" every third shot) ran through all his speedloaders. After we were done...and we did manage to break all but two...some several times ...the thundering herd of "purist" shotgun shooters making a mad dash to the stat shack to complain about "Them there cheatin' IPSC shooters" was so fast that the vacuum created by their passage sucked the ball cap from off my head. Five minutes later, we were disqualified and there were nice new signs EVERYWHERE that read "No more than two rounds in the gun EVER"... Back on topic...so a speedloader is, gasp, a speedloader and a magazine is (wait for it)...a magazine, and never the twain shall be one. Good. I like logical rules, which is why I enjoy IPSC so much Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 IPSC GUY: No, not in USPSA. I do have a ruling at the local Sporting Clays range, though. Fred and I showed up with our shotguns cased and paid to compete in the "flurry" event (30 birds from the trap, high, and low houses in 60 seconds). We asked...oh, we asked SEVERAL times...just how many rounds we could put in our shotguns.The answer was that we could start with no more than two, but could load as many as we wanted after that. Fred put two in his trick Browning Gold and then lined up speedloaders...at the 'get ready', he already had the shotgun inverted and the speedloader on the hooks. I started with my bolt locked back on an empty chamber and the 20-round drum lined up in the mag well. On the start whistle, Fred used his speedloaders to shuck eight more rounds into his magazine tube and I locked the 20-round drum magazine in place and cycled the bolt. It got REALLY ugly from there. After we were done...and don't get the wrong idea here, it was total yutzes on parade...we broke each other's birds, shot the same birds, ran 5 rounds on one bird...I had to reload to the 10-round stick mags and Fred (who had help...Liota was standing behind him yelling "load" every third shot) ran through all his speedloaders. After we were done...and we did manage to break all but two...some several times ...the thundering herd of "purist" shotgun shooters making a mad dash to the stat shack to complain about "Them there cheatin' IPSC shooters" was so fast that the vacuum created by their passage sucked the ball cap from off my head. Five minutes later, we were disqualified and there were nice new signs EVERYWHERE that read "No more than two rounds in the gun EVER"... Back on topic...so a speedloader is, gasp, a speedloader and a magazine is (wait for it)...a magazine, and never the twain shall be one. Good. I like logical rules, which is why I enjoy IPSC so much Alex Actually, that logic just makes for bigger rulebooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Wakal wrote: Good. I like logical rules, which is why I enjoy IPSC so much And just to recap ......... detachable mags are ONLY permitted in Open Division in IPSC Shotgun. Perhaps your post was meant to read the USPSA version of IPSC Shotgun. I'm not aware of any USPSA changes to the US division rules for 2004, but someone else might? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSC GUY Posted February 4, 2004 Author Share Posted February 4, 2004 Wakal That is the funniest "at the range story" I have read in a long time. really that is great I tell ya. Well It looks like I will shoot limited then. Just wondering if this whole mess will be repeated agin in the new Tactical class??? oh Gads IPSC_GUY sends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 No, because there is only a Tactical Rifle division and Tactical aggregate scoring, combining Limited Pistol, Standard Shotgun, and Tactical Rifle division points. I need to get used to saying Standard shotgun. There really is no Limited shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Thanks! It was pretty funny at the time, too. I thought "tactical" class was a rifle with one optic, a non-Open shotgun and a non-Open pistol. Of course, I immediately thought of running a Modified pistol Bev, oops...of course I meant to say that a mag fed shotgun (with only eight rounds in the magazine, naturally) is perfectly legal for USPSA Limited... Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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